585 Identification of a Woman

Discuss releases by Criterion and the films on them. Threads may contain spoilers!
Message
Author
User avatar
ellipsis7
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 1:56 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: 585 Identification of a Woman

#26 Post by ellipsis7 » Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:36 pm

As regards Michelangelo Antonioni's intense gaze, THE GAZE OF MICHELANGELO, his shorter meditation on Michelangelo Buonarotti's 'Moses', is salient in its study of MA's concentration on the physical form, male or female, flesh or marble... It's in the nature of all...

User avatar
Alan Smithee
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:49 am
Location: brooklyn

Re: 585 Identification of a Woman

#27 Post by Alan Smithee » Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:36 pm

I believe the criticism of leering older directors is usually justified. Though I'd be quicker to point a big finger at someone like Michael Bay before Antonioni, I still think it sticks. Antonionis short for Eros is fairly beautiful actually but it does come off like a latenight showtime softcore sometimes. As far as Roeg goes all I can say is Full Body Massage with Claudia Schiffer...

Edit: realized full body massage starred Mimi Rogers. The Claudia Schiffer thing was a terrible video art thingy with schiffer as muse. Both were completely embarrassing for one of the worlds greatest living directors.

User avatar
Sloper
Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 10:06 pm

Re: 585 Identification of a Woman

#28 Post by Sloper » Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:05 pm

Sorry if my comment came off as a bit ageist - for what it's worth I think the leering, such as it is, is quite intentional and integral to the film. This is after all the story of a film director coming to terms with his increasing age and diminishing virility through rather desperate erotic encounters, so it feels like we're being invited to read it as a little bit autobiographical. The phrase 'frank eroticism' is interesting in this context, because for me these sex scenes seem conspicuously un-erotic. It doesn't look like good sex; and yet at the same time, it's not as powerfully alienating as the orgy scenes in Blow-Up or Zabriskie Point, or the ending of La Notte. I can't quite find the words to say what I mean, but the sex scenes just don't feel that integrated into the rest of the film. Anyway, I'm happy to hear someone disagree with me, especially regarding the Beyond the Clouds documentary.

Is a fascination with the human body a major feature of Antonioni's earlier work? Lo Sguardo di Michelangelo certainly suggests this theme preoccupied him towards the end of his life, but for the most part my sense is that he tends to see bodies dwarfed by and absorbed into the inanimate world; when he does show human bodies coming together, they just seem to clash meaninglessly, like those deathly pale (if you trust the Warner edition) bodies in Zabriskie Point, covered in white sand. Niccolo's approach to sex in Identification, and indeed the gaze of Antonioni himself in his last film, suggest to me a sort of fascinated but uncomprehending fixation on these human forms - as if he's constantly trying to decipher them, wondering what distinguishes his own face and gaze from those of a statue. I'm rambling now, but I think it's an interesting question.

The oddest subtitle on the Mr Bongo DVD came when Niccolo was reading the cover of the script he had been sent: I think it says 'Le voce de aldila, oppure "Pensa, io esisto"' (pardon any spelling mistakes), and the subtitle just says 'the voices from over there or think I exist'. I looked up 'aldila' and apparently it means 'the afterlife', which makes more sense, but what's odd is that the people doing the subtitles obviously listened to the soundtrack at this point without actually watching the film! There was also the bit where Mavi says 'You think I sleep with gorillas?' and Niccolo replies, 'No, just the thugs who hire them', and the subtitles give us 'I sleep with the thugs who hire them' followed by 'No, just the thugs who hire them'. As if the film weren't confusing enough...

User avatar
Tommaso
Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 10:09 am

Re: 585 Identification of a Woman

#29 Post by Tommaso » Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:25 am

Sloper wrote:Sorry if my comment came off as a bit ageist - for what it's worth I think the leering, such as it is, is quite intentional and integral to the film. This is after all the story of a film director coming to terms with his increasing age and diminishing virility through rather desperate erotic encounters, so it feels like we're being invited to read it as a little bit autobiographical.
May well be, but I had absolutely no problem with your original assessment of all this; one might read it as autobiographical in "Identificazione", but the same leering is obvious in "Beyond the clouds", where it doesn't serve any real purpose for me. At least in that film I couldn't help thinking along the "dirty old man"-line, too. Compare this to, for instance, Rivette's "La belle noiseuse", another old man's film with a lot of nudity; but there one never has the idea of it being semi-pornographic, and as result the Rivette is curiously far more erotic...

User avatar
ellipsis7
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 1:56 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: 585 Identification of a Woman

#30 Post by ellipsis7 » Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:50 am

The new and thorough subs on the upcoming CC IDENTIFICAZIONE will be most welcome...

Don't like the word 'leering', MA prided himself being in tune with the zeitgeist, although by the time he made EROS/DANGEROUS THREAD he was clearly out of touch, misjudging prevailing political correctness etc., whereas the contemporaneous short GAZE OF MICHELANGELO is nye on perfect (see Rosenbaum's piece on it for instance)...

In IDENTIFICAZIONE and BEYOND THE CLOUDS, there is nudity, and an unflinching gaze, which can occasionally become intense enough to feel uncomfortable... However, digging further (I visited the location lately in Portofino of that episode of CLOUDS), and perusing Wim Wenders diary and importantly extensive photographic record of that film (found in the German edition), only highlights how remarkably sharp MA's technique & decoupage remained in that film... Likewise, IDENTIFICAZIONE, made just before his physically debilitating stroke, is his most elusive film, with many layers, and is likely to offer still more riches in the CC edition... Previous versions (the 4:3 cropped BFI VHS & the very unevenly subtitled Mr Bongo DVD) have frustrated its appreciation methinks... You only have look at the Wenders shot sequences in CLOUDS to realise how inferior the younger man's filmmaking is compared to MA when both men were attempting the same thing; Antonioni was still masterful...

This debate calls to mind Rohmer's oeuvre too, he continuing to concentrate (it could be said pruriently) on the lives and loves of young people right through to his old age, offset by the delightful reappearance of actors such as Beatrice Romand, from teenage to middle age, LE GENOU DE CLAIRE to CONTE D'AUTOMNE...

Robin Davies
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:00 am

Re: 585 Identification of a Woman

#31 Post by Robin Davies » Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:59 pm

Regarding Beyond the Clouds I must admit it stretched my credulity when the stunning Sophie Marceau was picked up so easily by an old balding John Malkovich.
But then I remembered that in real life she was living with Andrzej Zulawski - a film director 26 years older than her...

User avatar
Hopscotch
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:30 pm

Re: 585 Identification of a Woman

#32 Post by Hopscotch » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:21 am

Looks like Criterion is starting to dip into the Vox Humana archive with this release, or anyway is teasing it. I did some cursory searches and failed to find any discussion of this acquisition on the board.

Edit: Odd, now that I've clicked the link in my post, the article comes up as subscriber only. The news is that Criterion has acquired rights to over 800 hours of interviews. See also this Variety article.

User avatar
ellipsis7
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 1:56 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: 585 Identification of a Woman

#33 Post by ellipsis7 » Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:03 pm

The interview by Gideon Bachmann with MA on IDENTIFICATION OF A WOMAN was recorded on July 22nd 1982 in Rome, and no doubt the tapes of it are in the Vox Humana archives acquired by CC. It was also transcribed and published as 'A Love of Today: An interview with Michelangelo Antonioni' in Film Quarterly in the Summer of 1983... The CC booklet probably will draw on this as much as the tapes, although the actual recording might offer some more material than the version published, which may be edited for print...

User avatar
Cronenfly
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:04 pm

Re: 585 Identification of a Woman

#34 Post by Cronenfly » Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:30 am

Beaver

Looks like another Le Cercle Rouge/L'Enfance Nue-style color-timing debate...

User avatar
Brian C
I hate to be That Pedantic Guy but...
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:58 am
Location: Chicago, IL

Re: 585 Identification of a Woman

#35 Post by Brian C » Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:32 am

Except that the DVD does not look like anything I've ever seen in a movie theater ever.

User avatar
domino harvey
Dot Com Dom
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm

Re: 585 Identification of a Woman

#36 Post by domino harvey » Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:32 am

The darker color scheme is obv there to further hinder the identification

User avatar
mfunk9786
Under Chris' Protection
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:43 pm
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Re: 585 Identification of a Woman

#37 Post by mfunk9786 » Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:19 am

But Gary Tooze had something positive to say about it... shouldn't that be enough? It's not like he's generous with his praise

zitherstrings
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:35 am

Re: 585 Identification of a Woman

#38 Post by zitherstrings » Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:36 am

Brian C wrote:Except that the DVD does not look like anything I've ever seen in a movie theater ever.
You mean Criterion is accurate?

User avatar
ellipsis7
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 1:56 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: 585 Identification of a Woman

#39 Post by ellipsis7 » Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:33 am

Pretty much so IMHO... The BR framegrabs are best judged when viewed maximally blown up....

User avatar
Cold Bishop
Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 9:45 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Re: 585 Identification of a Woman

#40 Post by Cold Bishop » Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:06 am

This movie has always been sickly 1980s-pale... that's one of the appeals of it! Don't like this at all.

User avatar
NABOB OF NOWHERE
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2005 12:30 pm
Location: Brandywine River

Re: 585 Identification of a Woman

#41 Post by NABOB OF NOWHERE » Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:20 am

Gaumont are reportedly bringing out a 'restored' version on blu shortly. Don't know specs of either restoration or supplements/subs yet though.

User avatar
ellipsis7
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 1:56 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: 585 Identification of a Woman

#42 Post by ellipsis7 » Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:45 am

Some images for comparison...

Original French lobby cards....

Image

Image

Still photo from Einaudi Editore's published script from 1983...

Image

The Criterion is pretty consistent with these...

User avatar
Brian C
I hate to be That Pedantic Guy but...
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:58 am
Location: Chicago, IL

Re: 585 Identification of a Woman

#43 Post by Brian C » Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:38 am

zitherstrings wrote:You mean Criterion is accurate?
I have no idea. But the Mr. Bongo looks bizarre in comparison.

User avatar
Der Spieler
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:05 am

Re: 585 Identification of a Woman

#44 Post by Der Spieler » Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:09 pm

mfunk9786 wrote:But Gary Tooze had something positive to say about it... shouldn't that be enough? It's not like he's generous with his praise
Oh you.

oh yeah
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 7:45 pm

Re: 585 Identification of a Woman

#45 Post by oh yeah » Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:08 am

Brian C wrote:Except that the DVD does not look like anything I've ever seen in a movie theater ever.
I agree, but neither does this, really.

The rest of the Criterion caps look pretty good, but I can't shake the odd color of the lamp and general orange tint in the above pic. Then again, Antonioni never utilised color in a conventional manner...

User avatar
Noiretirc
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:04 pm
Location: VanIsle
Contact:

Re: 585 Identification of a Woman

#46 Post by Noiretirc » Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:01 am

Gropius wrote:Speaking as a great Antonioni fan, this one struck me as a very minor film.
Forgive my insolence, but you are not a "great" Antonioni fan. :P I am deeply disturbed and frustrated by the many in this thread who insist that Identification Of A Woman is "minor" Antonioni. (Even John Powers in the Criterion booklet drones on about this not being a demanding High Masterpiece, but rather Autumnal, modest and relaxed, containing tinny Eurotrash pop music, made by an old Dude.) Bullshit! I adore Those Sixties Works, and IOAW ranks with them. As an aside, maybe I missed a massive orgy or something, but the so-called sexual explicitness contained herein should not be so renowned...those scenes were brief and mild.

User avatar
matrixschmatrix
Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 11:26 pm

Re: 585 Identification of a Woman

#47 Post by matrixschmatrix » Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:39 am

Do you want to actually make a case for it being a major work, or just tell everyone else they're wrong?

User avatar
Noiretirc
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:04 pm
Location: VanIsle
Contact:

Re: 585 Identification of a Woman

#48 Post by Noiretirc » Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:23 pm

matrixschmatrix wrote:Do you want to actually make a case for it being a major work, or just tell everyone else they're wrong?
That's completely fair. I deleted a foggy (ahem) paragraph before posting last night.

User avatar
ellipsis7
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 1:56 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: 585 Identification of a Woman

#49 Post by ellipsis7 » Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:51 pm

If you look at the curve of Antononi's creativity and greatness, this figures on a downlying slope, however is vastly significant, much as his films of the 1950s are positioned on an uplying slope... Further this was the last film he was able to engage with full faculties the present, the here and now, the zeitgeist, while also reflecting wisdom, experience & knowledge... Later pieces had to dip into previously written source material... Yes, making this, he was an older filmmaker observing younger culture again, in or out of touch, but plus ca change, he did that for his entire career from his delightfully detached position....

oh yeah
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 7:45 pm

Re: 585 Identification of a Woman

#50 Post by oh yeah » Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:30 pm

I've seen the film again since the Criterion release, and while I wouldn't place it with The Passenger, L'avventura, Blow-Up, L'eclisse, Zabriskie Point, etc. I do think much more highly of it now (even if I suspect it needs a third viewing to really be fully appreciated, similar with most Antonioni I've found). It's a surprisingly moving film - not that other Antonioni films aren't moving, but not in such a direct, "human" way - probably because the focus, compared to his 60's and 70's works, is markedly less on the landscape and various surroundings and more on the characters themselves. I recall reading an interesting interview from the time of release where Antonioni basically said this was his intention, to get out of his stylistic "rut" and try on something new. Ultimately, what's most unfortunate about the film is simply that it was the last work of his that feels fully realized. That's not necessarily a knock on something like Beyond the Clouds, which I think certainly has its merits, but I think the great precision and focus evident in all his pictures up to Identification was rather dulled after he suffered the stroke.

Post Reply