383 Brute Force
- Max von Mayerling
- Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:02 pm
- Location: Ann Arbor, MI
- Michael
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 12:09 pm
A bit of trivia: Hector Babenco gave the Manuel Puig novel Kiss of the Spider Woman to Burt Lancaster at the NY Film Critics Society ceremony in 1981. Lancaster then tried to raise financing for 4 years for Babenco's film of the novel. Lancaster was to have played the role of Molina, the gay window dresser who shares a cell with Valentin, a political prisoner. However, Lancaster had a heart attack in 1983 and William Hurt took over the role Lancaster wanted to play.
- Gigi M.
- Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 5:09 pm
- Location: Santo Domingo, Dominican Rep
It's great that you mention this issue david. I believe many noirs are surrounded by gay characters. That, I believe, it's in the noir nature. One character I always seen as a gay man is Sam Jaffe's Doc Erwin from Houston's Asphalt Jungle. Not sure why, but every time I watch the movie gives me that feeling.davidhare wrote:The issue of how gay characters or even gayness itself is depicted in Noir is not without problems of itself, but the genre at least allows a landscape of disfunction and an entropic view of society and the corruption of the everyday which permits such "perversity" to become "normal".
Been over a year since I last saw Brute Force by chance on Sky, yet to buy the CC version but I'll try contribute to this discussion in the meantime based on hazy recollections. I certainly recall this being a bold and very provocative post war film which left a lasting impression upon me.
Regarding the film as a whole felt the first half hour or so was impeccable example of establishing mood and tone of a film. As a viewer I was left in no doubt about the perverse sense of morals and loyalty of all those involved, despite the clumsy flashbacks that were imposed upon it which really hamper the pacing of the film.
I have to agree with you on how Hume Cronyn's character is a very distinctive cinematic creation, though I must admit I didn't notice the homoerotic undertones that yourself and others have. I would cite an early scene in which he prevents a guard hitting one of the room mates, "it was my fault," and trying to avoid spoilers how he approached the same inmate later in the film and tries to manipulate him into collaborating.davidhare wrote:Certainly Brute Force, among other things, is a microcosm of a sort of fascist social order from which no one escapes. Some critics (including Silver) see Hume Cronyn's character as overdrawn but I think both his performance and the writing render him totally convincing. It's when you wonder HOW he operates that you really pick up this queerness, and the way this also occurs -if extremely well hidden - in other characters.
Regarding the film as a whole felt the first half hour or so was impeccable example of establishing mood and tone of a film. As a viewer I was left in no doubt about the perverse sense of morals and loyalty of all those involved, despite the clumsy flashbacks that were imposed upon it which really hamper the pacing of the film.
My apologies for being vague, I was going by this line from *cough* a wikipedia entry;
Then again I like the inside outside/dynamic from the credits. Perhaps it would work better if, as in Ulzana's Raid (Robert Aldrich) also starring Burt Lancaster edited out a main female lead yet kept her name prominant in the credits, she is referred to but barely seen. Rounding off this tenous link I believe Aldrich disliked his film as well.
One final thought (for now) with regard to Brute Force. I happened to see a documantary called Hell in the Pacific in which a American POW revealed how when a fellow prisoner was treated better after snitching on locals who were sneaking food into the camp, they murdered him, disposing of the body in a waste container, to avoid Japanese detection. Grim stuff, but what was really horrifying to me, was a total lack of remorse about drowning a man in shit, which I think ties into this film how whether it is a POW camp or a prison, it is a hellish environment, a world of twisted morality and ethics, a world turned upside down. I could take this further suggesting violence within prison causes an implosion, the damage is done inside the prison, inside the person rather than out.
Might be reaching on that insight, possibly as a result of having seen Thief (Michael Mann) hence I'm getting all existential, just wondering if the scene with Caan and his mentor and the attitudes about prison life has any tangible connection.
Had no luck finding sources or quotation from Dassin to back this up, but I felt that if I brought it up maybe someone here could shed light on this issue. Either way I think they undermine the pacing (each looking to the picture ) of the film, and the carefully structured escalation of brutality portrayed in the film."Director Jules Dassin was disappointed in the flashback sequences in Brute Force. He strongly believed the flashback sequences watered down the film and he objected to their use. It was a battle he lost to the MGM studio bosses. He was not happy at MGM, he said, "I want to forget all films I made for MGM."
Then again I like the inside outside/dynamic from the credits. Perhaps it would work better if, as in Ulzana's Raid (Robert Aldrich) also starring Burt Lancaster edited out a main female lead yet kept her name prominant in the credits, she is referred to but barely seen. Rounding off this tenous link I believe Aldrich disliked his film as well.
One final thought (for now) with regard to Brute Force. I happened to see a documantary called Hell in the Pacific in which a American POW revealed how when a fellow prisoner was treated better after snitching on locals who were sneaking food into the camp, they murdered him, disposing of the body in a waste container, to avoid Japanese detection. Grim stuff, but what was really horrifying to me, was a total lack of remorse about drowning a man in shit, which I think ties into this film how whether it is a POW camp or a prison, it is a hellish environment, a world of twisted morality and ethics, a world turned upside down. I could take this further suggesting violence within prison causes an implosion, the damage is done inside the prison, inside the person rather than out.
Might be reaching on that insight, possibly as a result of having seen Thief (Michael Mann) hence I'm getting all existential, just wondering if the scene with Caan and his mentor and the attitudes about prison life has any tangible connection.
A proverbial whoops is in order. A pretty obvious oversight on my part (I tend not to look at which studio did what so took it at face value) and indeed whoever wrote that piece on wikipedia. Wishful thinking that Dassin didn't come up with those scenes of his own freewill may have also been a factor .
- malcolm1980
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- domino harvey
- Dot Com Dom
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm
- Florinaldo
- Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:38 pm
- Location: Canada
Re:
Glad to see my filmic gaydar was not working feverishly overtime when I picked up on these clues.david hare wrote:More to the point I think Hume does a great number as a barely repressed gay Sadist. (Surely the male nude statuary and the Wagner on the phonograph in his office gives the game away.) And Hume's is not the only intimation of gayness in the movie.
I just finished watching this movie for the first time. A generally impressive effort on all parts, including the great set design, except for the flashbacks. Not only do they take us out unnecessarily out of the huis clos setting of the prison, but they are also rather clumsily directed and full of clichés: there's even a noble cripple girl to stir the heart strings. Their overall effect goes so far as to blunt the metaphor of the pin-up image who's all women to all men, since she is ultimately incarnated by Hollywood stereotypes. I suppose these scenes were designed to flesh out the prisoners and make us care more for them as humans, but it just made me irritated at the annoying artificiality of the settings and longing for us to finally get back to the jail.
Not that the rest of the movie is perfect (it is rather heavy-handed at times with its social message and the character of the warden is too much of a washed-out wimp), but if one were to excise these flashbacks, i am convinced the results might be much more porweful and hard-hitting, although perhaps too much so for some viewers, especially those from back then.
- Wood Tick
- Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:11 am
Re: Re:
One expects a certain degree of staginess from earlier films. There seems to be a prejudice nowadays that favors a certain notion of realism that quite unfortunately puts a gem like Brute Force beyond the pale. I guess it does no good for present-day film appreciation to point out that old movies such as this are drawn from a sort of artifice that is kindred to that of theater, and that the point is to effect a sort of dream, rather than create the illusion of literal reality.Florinaldo wrote:david hare wrote:I just finished watching this movie for the first time. A generally impressive effort on all parts, including the great set design, except for the flashbacks. Not only do they take us out unnecessarily out of the huis clos setting of the prison, but they are also rather clumsily directed and full of clichés: there's even a noble cripple girl to stir the heart strings.
The crippled girl somehow didn't bother me so much. The scene with Yvonne DeCarlo in wartime Italy, however, was hamfisted to the point of distraction.
- swo17
- Bloodthirsty Butcher
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- domino harvey
- Dot Com Dom
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm
Re: 383 Brute Force
*Reissue. Only just noticed that the new Bordwell extra is three years old-- wonder what the delay was in releasing this on Blu-ray?
- swo17
- Bloodthirsty Butcher
- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:25 am
- Location: SLC, UT
Re: 383 Brute Force
It's a reissue in the sense that the Blu-ray will include a new extra, but there will not be a new DVD release
- domino harvey
- Dot Com Dom
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm
Re: 383 Brute Force
True. For purposes of end of year voting, a new on-disc extra is enough to qualify as such though
- The Fanciful Norwegian
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:24 pm
- Location: Teegeeack
Re: 383 Brute Force
I'm guessing they were waiting for the 4K remaster. The Bordwell piece originally appeared on Filmstruck, so it wasn't necessarily done with an imminent Blu-ray release in mind.domino harvey wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:10 pm*Reissue. Only just noticed that the new Bordwell extra is three years old-- wonder what the delay was in releasing this on Blu-ray?
- FrauBlucher
- Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:28 pm
- Location: Greenwich Village
- Mr Sausage
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:02 pm
- Location: Canada
Brute Force (Jules Dassin, 1947)
DISCUSSION ENDS MONDAY, November 28th
Members have a two week period in which to discuss the film before it's moved to its dedicated thread in The Criterion Collection subforum. Please read the Rules and Procedures.
This thread is not spoiler free. This is a discussion thread; you should expect plot points of the individual films under discussion to be discussed openly. See: spoiler rules.
DISCUSSION QUESTIONS
I encourage members to submit questions, either those designed to elicit discussion and point out interesting things to keep an eye on, or just something you want answered. This will be extremely helpful in getting discussion started. Starting is always the hardest part, all the more so if it's unguided. Questions can be submitted to me via PM.
Members have a two week period in which to discuss the film before it's moved to its dedicated thread in The Criterion Collection subforum. Please read the Rules and Procedures.
This thread is not spoiler free. This is a discussion thread; you should expect plot points of the individual films under discussion to be discussed openly. See: spoiler rules.
DISCUSSION QUESTIONS
I encourage members to submit questions, either those designed to elicit discussion and point out interesting things to keep an eye on, or just something you want answered. This will be extremely helpful in getting discussion started. Starting is always the hardest part, all the more so if it's unguided. Questions can be submitted to me via PM.
- Mr Sausage
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:02 pm
- Location: Canada
Re: Brute Force (Jules Dassin, 1947)
My parents remember Hume Cronyn as this fond, warm, lovable presence, but I'll always remember him as the sexual sadist running the prison in this one. It's the most vivid thing about the movie.
- therewillbeblus
- Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:40 pm
Re: Brute Force (Jules Dassin, 1947)
Yeah his role as brute force incarnate is the only memorable thing about the film for me
- MichaelB
- Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:20 pm
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Re: Brute Force (Jules Dassin, 1947)
This is totally tangential, but I worked on the original Arrow BD release, and this is the film that originated my still ongoing policy of offering more descriptive SDH subtitles than a generic "(MUSIC PLAYING)".Mr Sausage wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:47 amMy parents remember Hume Cronyn as this fond, warm, lovable presence, but I'll always remember him as the sexual sadist running the prison in this one. It's the most vivid thing about the movie.
Since the music that the warder was listening to was obviously Wagner, and I felt that this was a not insignificant piece of information, I changed the supplied subtitle to "(WAGNER PLAYING)" (or something along those lines) and never looked back.
Later on, I applied a similar approach to "(SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)", favouring at the very least "(SPEAKING [NAMED LANGUAGE])" or, ideally, offering a transcript of what's actually being said. After all, if we can hear it, surely the hard of hearing should be able to read it?