Optimum: The Luis Buñuel Collection

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MichaelB
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#51 Post by MichaelB » Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:42 pm

zedz wrote:As the difference results from two different (and equally acceptable) translations of the original French, the correct answer is that they're both 'wrong' (and both 'right'). In the original, the organisation is apparently the Groupe Armee Revolutionnaire de l'Enfant Jesus, or GAREJ. Here's a reference.
You're absolutely right, and I apologise for spelling the word 'enfant' as 'infant' - which just goes to show how much better my spoken French is than the written variety!

And it was definitely GAREJ - I remember it vividly now.

FilmLover082
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#52 Post by FilmLover082 » Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:27 pm

My goodness! Thanks to you both! Needless to say, I wasn't expecting that! =D>

My thoughts on the set is that this is a wonderful set. The transfers are as good as the Criterions. To my eye, anyways. It would have been nice if Criterion released The Milky Way years ago. Same goes for The Exterminating Angel...

Rich Malloy
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#53 Post by Rich Malloy » Thu Feb 15, 2007 12:46 pm

Scharphedin2 wrote:This is obviously going off topic, but I think it is an important discussion.

First off, I have tremendous respect for what Gary does, and I think Beaver is a fantastic and fun site (although definitely not the only site, and I think as a reader, one needs to approach the site with some healthy scepticism). The screen caps and comparisons are a great service to the internet film community, however, I think the best approach is to look at these for general guidance, and then form a personal opinion based on your eyes rather than on the site's final verdict.
Absolutely true. However, I'm simply unable to purchase every DVD release of a film from around the world and then compare them each of them on my very own equipment with my very own eyes. I simply don't have the money or the time! (Granted, I've bought certain favorite titles many times over, but this is hardly the norm.) The Beaver is one of my favorite references, and certainly one of the most important ones, along with the reviews and comparisons posted on this forum and excellent sites like the DVD Times.
Scharphedin2 wrote:.. there is the bias against certain labels, and Kino would (to me at least) appear the most glaring and unjust example. I can completely sympathise with Beaver being unenthusiastic about Kino for reasons of pricing, or general quality of transfers, or whatever other reason, but it appears that this lack of enthusiasm has almost resulted in a black listing of the label, which really is not fair considering the obvious quality of the films that the label releases month after month. Even if all their releases were of completely hopeless technical quality, I still think that these should be mentioned, since the label obviously fills a very important niche.
I read this along with Pro-B's assertion of a bias in favor of Criterion, and I hope we all would acknowledge that some biases are in fact earned. Specifically, those that are based upon a track record of our experiences and observations that to some degree can be objectively considered and established. However, once a bias is established, it can be hard to shake it off, creating a mindset where a once-objective conclusion has become a prejudice.

However, I think Gary's quite justified in his criticisms of Kino, and I don't understand the assertion that Kino is somehow "blacklisted" at the Beaver. It seems to me that Kino's releases are very often the subject of reviews and comparisons. Off the top of my head, I'd conjecture that Kino is one of the more widely reviewed DVD houses by the Beaver, if only because they release films that tend to appeal to a Beaverish cinematic sensibility. But I'll allow for the possibility that Kino's releases are neglected by the Beaver as a result of bias, and I simply haven't noticed. But the fact that those Kino releases that are reviewed so often come up short is certainly no fault of Gary's or Henryk's or any of the other Beaver reviewers.

DVD distributors earn a good or bad reputation by their history of releases. We should appreciate Kino for the great films they put out, but at the same time acknowledge that their transfers of those films are decidedly second-rate. And, as you note, they charge a premium. Likewise New Yorker, Facets, Koch Lorber, Wellspring, etc. etc. To acknowledge this is not necessarily the same as expressing a bias; very often, it's simply acknowledging the truth.

Ask yourself: if Criterion consistently released interlaced, artifact-ridden, non pre-converted PAL> NTSC transfers, or English alterations of original language title cards, etc., would they not also have earned the ire often directed at Kino? Putting the Beaver aside, how many Kino releases have I subsequently replaced with MoC releases, personally noting an obvious improvement? The answer is every single one where it's possible to do so. And I'd have to acknowledge that some of the shittiest DVD transfers in my collection are from Kino - for example, Kino's "Kieslowski Collection", "Wong Kar-Wai Collection", and non-anamorphic "Time Regained". I'm looking to replace all of them, and have gotten a pretty good start on the Wong titles.

Getting back to the Optimum Bunuels, I understand that Pro-B is convinced that Criterion has screwed up the color timing on their (non B&W) Bunuel releases. That's a somewhat subjective characterization in any circumstance, and I certainly haven't the knowledge or experience to dispute or confirm it. So, I accept it, but only because I defer to Pro-B's authority on the matter. But what of something that's not so subjective? For example, what if Criterion had screwed up the audio a la Optimum's "Obscure Object" disc? Does anyone here doubt that it would be corrected and replaced? Can anyone here say with any degree of certainty or optimism that Optimum will do the same? I think we all hope and expect them to stand by their product, correct it, and exchange the faulty discs. But, unlike Criterion, they lack a track record that makes this a foregone conclusion.

And what about film scholarship? I haven't heard the commentary on Optimum's "Belle de jour" disc, but I've read the reviews cited in this thread. Does anyone think that the commentary Optimum commissioned is "Criterion quality"? How many sneering remarks would a commentary like that receive if it showed up on a Criterion release?

I think there's some other psychology at work here, too. Certainly, the prospect of a new DVD house releasing high quality transfers of canonical films is very exciting to all of us (Masters of Cinema, to name but one!). And perhaps in our excitement we temper our critiques accordingly, hoping to shepherd these bright upstarts along. We note their mistakes in passing, minimizing them to the extent we can, rationalizing them away if possible, and generally hoping that such minor transgressions are simply initial missteps that are sure to be corrected. Perhaps it's simply because we like rooting for the underdog. But, from personal observation, we rightly hold Criterion to an exactingly high standard, while at the same time cut far too much slack to far too many lesser DVD houses.

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MichaelB
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#54 Post by MichaelB » Thu Feb 15, 2007 1:31 pm

Rich Malloy wrote:And what about film scholarship? I haven't heard the commentary on Optimum's "Belle de jour" disc, but I've read the reviews cited in this thread. Does anyone think that the commentary Optimum commissioned is "Criterion quality"? How many sneering remarks would a commentary like that receive if it showed up on a Criterion release?
Well, in terms of raw scholarship, Peter Evans was an excellent choice - he's unquestionably one of the leading Bunuel scholars in the English language, so Optimum's instincts were sound at base, even if the end result seems to have fallen well short of expectations.

But the problem is, as my colleagues frequently tell me, commissioning a commentary is often a huge gamble because the medium is so different from print, not least in terms of the need for split-second timing. And it also involves a massive amount of work - all of which has to be done before the actual recording session. And if the end result turns out to be below expectations... well, the money has already been spent, so do you really want to write it off?

I imagine this is why the same critics pop up again and again on commentary tracks - not least Criterion ones! And even they can have off days, as a quick comparison of the relatively plodding Peter Cowie commentary on The Leopard with the stunning David Forgacs one on the BFI release will quickly reveal.

Rich Malloy
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#55 Post by Rich Malloy » Thu Feb 15, 2007 2:18 pm

And while I think the great Tony Rayns did yeoman's work trying to shepherd Edward Yang through the "Yi Yi" commentary, I'd have to concede that it's not all that great. Barring some of Rayn's insights, I think Yang's commentary on the otherwise execrable Fox Lorber release was perhaps just as good, if not a little bit better.

But my quibbles over "Yi Yi" aside, I don't consider Fox Lorber to be superior at commentaries than Criterion, or even comparable. If we're speaking of "biases", then I still expect Criterion commentaries to be superior and will hold their proverbial feet to the proverbial fire anytime they come up short. It's that "exactingly high standard" that we expect and demand from them, a standard that's rarely applied so stringently to other DVD houses leading to a sort of sliding scale whereby every distributor that is not Criterion gets graded on a curve. I do this, as well. And perhaps for some of the reasons I cited above.

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Scharphedin2
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#56 Post by Scharphedin2 » Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:22 pm

Rich, I think your points are all good and valid ones, and the distance between us on this issue, I think, are mainly of personal priorities.

You are probably right in defining Beaver's bias as more pro-Criterion, than anti-label x y or z.

There have been some (in my opinon unjustly) strong dismissals of some of Kino's titles, and probably those of other labels as well. I did not really want to pit Kino against Criterion or any other label. The reason I singled out Kino is because I specifically remember steering away from many of their titles after reading Beaver's assessments (this is going back a couple of years). Recently I purchased a large chunk of Kino's library (silents, 30s, 40s and 50s titles, which may not be the best examples in the context of this discussion), and, yes, Criterion and several other labels habitually release discs of films from these periods in film history that look smoother and nicer (and probably do not have the inherent transfer flaws that Beaver's caps point out, but which are not visible to my eyes). However, the fact remains that no other label has opted to make a(s) strong commitment to silent cinema, and all manner of obscure films from the decades immediately following the silent days. So, in a sense, Kino is the "criterion" for these certain types of films.

So, my conclusion on Beaver's lack of focus on Kino (or other labels) as an important label, for whatever past or present objections the reviewers have against the quality of the discs, pricing, etc, is really a disservice to the fans of their site. I write this not to slight Beaver, but in the recognition of Beaver's stature as a reviewing site and influence on a certain segment of the film viewing public, who would be a prime market for Kino's releases, but who in many cases are not exposed to coverage of these films. In a perfect world, I think Beaver would make it a point to cover every Kino release, just as they cover every Criterion release, and in that world, they would perhaps also comment more on the quality of the films as films, and how they look when playing, rather than on the transfer when put under the microscope, because in the end I doubt that this to most people will make the greatest difference (only, Beaver in a way makes them think that it will) -- certainly it has not proven so to me, although there was a time, when I was convinced that it would.

Another point is the methodology involved in capturing screen shots. I would be really keen to see some kind of essay at Beaver doing a self-exposé on this aspect of their work. Are the caps really in all cases captured according to the same standards?

Also (and here I know I will not find many allies in the forum), sometimes there is a comfort in seeing old films in less than pristine condition. I viewed Scandal from MoC the other day, and it has its share of age-related defects both on the soundtrack and image, but I found myself feeling closer to the film for it (if that makes sense at all). Personal eccentricity, I know, and I will not push the point.

Finally, on the point of a label like Optimum releasing a disc with error, and not correcting this error. I love Criterion, and it gives me great pain to say this, but recently I purchased Jigoku. Six months ago, it was discovered that the first printing of this disc has a glitch (2 min of footage missing). Criterion has acknowledged the glitch by replacing discs sent to them within the US -- and apparently they have issued a second printing of the disc. However, as I understand it, they have not formally come forward with an apology or replacement policy. So, I waited six months, and placed my order with DVDEmpire, which I would think has a turnover of their stock within six months, and should have received word about the glitch and replacement discs within that timeframe... but no, I received a copy of the defective first edition. With the high ideals and reputation of Criterion, I actually struggle somewhat with this experience.

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#57 Post by MichaelB » Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:42 pm

On a practical note, do Kino send all their releases to DVD Beaver as a matter of routine? Because if they don't, that may provide a rather simpler explanation for the relative lack of coverage!

Put it like this, it's not entirely coincidental that Gary just happens to cover more or less every single BFI release, and usually well in advance of the official launch date...

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Scharphedin2
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#58 Post by Scharphedin2 » Thu Feb 15, 2007 6:20 pm

I did think of this Michael, and I think it is pretty obvious that Kino does not provide advance copies to Beaver (I don't know this, but I think it is a natural assumption).

I think it is possible to speculate that Beaver's positive bias toward a label like Criterion is the fact that they very clearly do send their releases for review. My guess is that Beaver is to a large extent a philantropic enterprise, which is admirable. However, this means that the reward for all the hard work really is the advance DVDs, and I think it puts Beaver in a difficult spot. It would be very easy to overlook slight defects in a release, when you are genuinely thankful for the support from a label that you admire. By the same token, it would seem a very human reaction to be a little more conscious of the shortcomings of a release from a label that is not as forthcoming in its support.

Again, I am in no way interested in slighting Beaver. I think it is a great and valuable site. My only point is to encourage film fans not to place too great emphasis on Beaver's verdicts. From reading many posts in this forum, it would appear that many people take Beaver's opinions on the quality of a given DVD as the scientific and enlightened truth (in large part, I suspect, because of the screen caps/comparisons). There are obviously several other sites that are staffed by reviewers with an equally great knowledge and passion for film/DVD as Beaver's reviewers, and who write reviews that often differ significantly from those of Beaver in the assessment of the quality of a given release.

My other main point is that reading Beaver, the pleasure of viewing films (on DVD) very easily becomes of secondary importance to a hyper-consciousness of the quality of transfers. Michael, I know we have parted ways in the past on what constitutes an acceptable level of quality in a transfer, and obviously your standards are much higher than mine in this respect. However, I do not think we disagree on the importance of being curious to see films (and being able to see them) as the very first priority. In that respect, you are in a privileged position, as a professional with much easier access to viewing the films that you are interested in viewing without having to rely on second-best DVD editions. I am not in such a privileged position; on the other hand I feel very privileged to be able to see many films (that would have been unthinkable for me even five years ago due to unavailability in any form), even if it means going with a transfer that is less than state of the art.

Rich Malloy
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#59 Post by Rich Malloy » Thu Feb 15, 2007 7:49 pm

Scharphedin2, this is certainly one of those unusual (uh, debates?) where I find myself agreeing with everything you say. As you note, if we differ at all, it's only as to which priorities we emphasize.

For silent film fans, Kino is a godsend. Certainly they release more silents and early cinema than Criterion. And they should be praised for doing so. And while they shouldn't be blacklisted for imperfection, I think those imperfections should be noted.

And likewise Optimum should be praised for bringing out "The Young Ones" and a better "Tristana". And whether or not their encodes of the OOP Warner transfers are superior, inferior, or the same, they should also get credit for bringing these titles back to the market. If I didn't have the now-OOP Warner "Belle" and "Milky Way" discs, I would not hesitate to purchase the Optimums. I may still purchase the Optimum set, but I'm going to give it some time to see whether they release "Tristana" and "The Young Ones" separately.

And you're absolutely correct that only so much information can be gleaned from a still shot. Sometimes, a still capture can make a transfer look far better than it otherwise would (I'm thinking now of the stills from the R2 "Earrings of Madame de..." disc that looks fairly decent when frozen, but is apparently a mess when in motion). Sometimes a particular still will make a transfer look worse than when in motion. For example, whenever a transfer exhibits combing or ghosting, the Beaver seems to strive to capture that in a still. When in motion, it won't look quite as bad as that selected frame, but I think it's a better practice than only providing those non-ghosted stills. Those of us with a little experience will understand that the negative effect when viewing will be a softer image and not a quite so horrendous ghosting effect. And I believe the Beaver has developed some "best practices" in terms of capturing stills. They do note where frames compared are not identical, and I know they've pulled comparisons before where there was a problem with some of the captures. But whether that always results in the best possible capture from each individual disc, I cannot say.

You raise a good point with "Jigoku", and I think it bears repeating with some greater emphasis placed on the fact that Criterion will not (can not?) replace discs purchased by non-R1 domiciles. I think this has to do with distribution rights. It's a particularly interesting point to raise in this thread, as I wonder now if Optimum would be able to replace defective "Obscure Object" discs for non-R2 domiciles?

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Rsdio
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#60 Post by Rsdio » Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:44 am

Any update on the sound situation on That Obscure Object of Desire at all? I was just about to get around to ordering the set (I had my appetite whetted when I saw Los Olvidados last week on a trip down to London) when I came across this thread, it all sounds a bit worrying. It'd be especially annoying since I flogged my Criterion of it a while back in preparation..

Edit: Some good news on the Bunuel set, I emailed Optimum to ask about it and got this back:
Dear Brett,

We have had an audio problem with the ‘That Obscure Object of Desire' disc but we produced a new DLT .

Unfortunately some of the old faulty boxsets might still be on the shelves, but if you go on our online DVD store (address below), I'll personally make sure that you receive a new version of the boxset.

Thanks for your query.

Regards.

Emilie Barra

DVD Assistant
Good to know, I assume they'll probably let anyone who got one of the faulty ones exchange it.

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sevenarts
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#61 Post by sevenarts » Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:55 am

This is good news indeed. My Bensons World order has been sitting in limbo for a loooooong time, I wonder if it's because Optimum was recalling and replacing the sets. I've just e-mailed Bensons to find out if they have or will have the corrected copies soon.

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vogler
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#62 Post by vogler » Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:15 pm

Did anyone who had already received the set with the faulty disc get a reply from Optimum? They didn't respond to my emails at all.

There is a discussion in this thread on the dvdtalk forum which suggests that they told pro-bassonist they had "No plans for re-release at this point".

It would be very disappointing if they only responded to people who have yet to buy the set and either ignored or lied to those who had bought it already. I'm sure they wouldn't do that though, it must be a misunderstanding (?). Perhaps they only made the decision to fix the problem very recently.

Pro-bassoonist, do you have any more information on this? If I don't hear from Optimum soon I think I'll probably send the box set back to the retailer for a refund.

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#63 Post by pro-bassoonist » Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:18 pm

Actually I am very surprised that someone received a positive reply regarding this issue. I tried calling from the US and then emailed them and was given a generic answer, the gist of it: no new discs available!

I am VERY INTERESTED in knowing how exactly this is going to be handled if it is indeed TRUE. In fact, if the poster above (I asume from the UK) can get back in touch with the person from Optimum and get her direct phone number I will be willing to call from the US to find out exactly what is going on here. Or you could do that if you are willing to go the extra mile.

I sort of feel obliged to make sure that this is indeed true as I have taken on the issue very seriously (including providing info on all upcoming Optimum releases) and did indeed receive quite a few emais from people asking what is going on.

This reply to say the least has me surprised...pleasantly!

I could be reached directly at stock13@hotmail.com

Pro-B

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vogler
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#64 Post by vogler » Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:44 pm

pro-bassoonist wrote:I am VERY INTERESTED in knowing how exactly this is going to be handled if it is indeed TRUE.
There has been no information so far from Optimum to say that they will replace the faulty discs. The email from Optimum was just information for Rsdio who had not yet bought it - I think Optimum were just directing him to their website to buy a copy (I think that is correct). As for all of us who have bought the set with the faulty discs we have either been told that there are no new discs or simply been ignored. I'm not sure that they actually intend to replace the faulty discs. Let's hope I'm wrong though. Optimum seem to be very helpful if you contact them about buying their product but not so helpful if you have already bought it.

This is why I am going to return the set for a refund if I don't hear from Optimum soon. I could always buy it again some time in the future when all this is sorted out. I don't want to risk being stuck with the faulty disc when a fixed version is available.

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Rsdio
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#65 Post by Rsdio » Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:41 pm

Well I did already reply to her saying that I'd rather wait a bit for the faulty stock to be replaced at places like Play rather than buying direct from them at RRP so I'm now probably even further down the pecking order than someone who's already bought the set. ;)

It was just the normal email address I used to contact them (info@optimumreleasing.com) in case anyone else wants to try their luck.

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#66 Post by pro-bassoonist » Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:23 am

Then we are back at point A.

I am going to call again tomorrow and attempt to find out how we (the people who already bought the set) are going to have to deal with this issue now that we know that Optimum knows that there was trouble with Obscure Object....

I will report once I am done speaking with them.

Thank's for the additional info.

Edit: Spoke on the phone with Mrs. Emilie Barra in London late last night (well, it was 4.30 AM Chicago time). Here's the official FINAL word on what is to follow (I posted at DVDTALK as well):
1. UK customers can now directly contact the London office and exchange their faulty sets/disc (though Optimum prefer that you deal directly with the vendor you obtained the set from). There should be absolutely no problem with it as confirmed by Mrs. Barra in her email to me after we spoke on the phone (I will attach the two emails below).

2. Since there are rights limitations on this set, which should be obvious to anyone, Optimum can NOT extend the replacement program overseas. Meaning that if you happen to be a non-UK customer then your only option is to ship the set back to the vendor you bought it from for a replacement.

3. The faulty boxsets have been recalled (if you order from Benson's AT THIS POINT you should be getting the new CORRECTED set). I am certain this will be the case with Amazon.UK shortly if it already isn't. I am told that all sets are now recalled. Once again, if you happen to be form the UK from this point on this should be easy game: just send back your set and get a new one.

4. It is a bit unfortunate for people like us, not being in the UK, but all things considered I think that the conversation I had on the phone clearly shows that Optimum tried and did resolve what appears to have been a minor glitch. That is my final take on the issue and hopefully whether you happen to be in the UK, USA, Australia, Europe, or elsewhere this post answers your questions.
I am attaching the email that I received from Optimum shortly after we spoke on the phone:
(As per our conversation) I've passed on your e-mail to our people in technical and the general manager of Optimum Home Entertainment. I will let you know Asap what they've decided to do.
Thanks for your email. We do care passionately about the films we release and always try to maintain the highest possible technical standards. The audio problem on the initial run of That Obscure Object of Desire has now been corrected. We are happy to replace faulty discs for any UK customers although in the first instance they would need to contact the retailer from which they purchased the disc. As our rights cover the UK and Ireland only unfortunately we cannot supply DVDs to customers in the US.

Regards.

Emilie Barra
Optimum Releasing

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sevenarts
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#67 Post by sevenarts » Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:19 am

For those who haven't ordered yet, Bensons World has just confirmed to me that Optimum has re-pressed the box, and that anybody ordering from Bensons World now will be getting new copies.

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#68 Post by Lino » Thu Mar 01, 2007 4:15 pm

I'm glad I held off all this time from buying it. I placed an order last night from Bensons and I really hope I'm getting the corrected disc in the set. If not, it will only be a matter of returning it for a replacement.

Good show on Optimum's part. Took them awhile to realize but everything seems to be ok now.

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Matt
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#69 Post by Matt » Thu Mar 01, 2007 4:32 pm

I'm glad they're doing the right thing, too. I probably won't bother to exchange my disc, though, since it would be a small hassle to do so and since I kept the Criterion edition of That Obscure Object anyway. I also found that I can "fix" the audio problem by switching my receiver to mono.

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#70 Post by Lino » Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:37 pm

Bensons already shipped my set yesterday. Great service. Can't wait to receive it.

Pink spines...sigh... [insert Homer emoticon here]

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ben d banana
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#71 Post by ben d banana » Sat Mar 03, 2007 10:41 pm

If you ordered the defective set overseas from Amazon UK I'm quite certain you'll be happy with their reply on the matter, or maybe I'm just a sweet talker.

Thanks to Pro-B and others who did all the work.

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#72 Post by FilmLover082 » Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:27 pm

ben d banana wrote:If you ordered the defective set overseas from Amazon UK I'm quite certain you'll be happy with their reply on the matter, or maybe I'm just a sweet talker.
What did Amazon reply? I ordered from them and sent an email, but haven't heard back. Hopefully there is a way to just get "That Obscure Object Of Desire" disc, rather than having to send the entire box set back to them. I am in the USA and if that's the case, I'll just keep the messed up disc.

Edit: Well... After having to resend my message about the Optimum set to Amazon twice on the whole fiasco, they sent me another set free of charge. Great service on their part. But... I received another "unfixed" set. I'm just going to forget about the whole thing and rebuy the Region 1 disc. I remember liking the extras, anyways.

The only winner here is my friend who will get my other set. :?

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sevenarts
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#73 Post by sevenarts » Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:09 pm

I just got my Optimum set from Bensons World today, and can confirm that the audio on That Obscure Object sounds fine, through headphones or otherwise.

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Lino
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#74 Post by Lino » Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:40 pm

sevenarts wrote:I just got my Optimum set from Bensons World today, and can confirm that the audio on That Obscure Object sounds fine, through headphones or otherwise.
Same here. I'm slowly going through all the discs and extras (the documentaries are very informative and very well put together) and so far, so good. In fact, the screencaps posted elsewhere on this forum don't do the discs justice -- it's one of those cases where they look so much better in motion.

Again, only problem here is with the Tristana transfer. Apart from that, definitely one of the best sets released this year so far!

kinemax
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#75 Post by kinemax » Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:40 pm

Does anyone know if the Optimum set carried by CdWow has the corrected audio track?

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