64 / BD 70 Nosferatu

Discuss releases by Eureka and Masters of Cinema and the films on them.
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nyasa
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 5:05 am
Location: UK

#101 Post by nyasa » Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:53 am

MichaelB wrote:You can't have bought many titles recently - on my shelf, Salesman is the only 2007 release with a black spine!
It's a fair cop. My next most recent title is Faust.

I've been trying to cut down on the number of DVDs I buy. It's a 12-step program. Not worrying about how they look on the shelf is Step 1. Oh dear.

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HerrSchreck
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 11:46 am

#102 Post by HerrSchreck » Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:12 am

MichaelB wrote: As for the frame grab, I can now confirm that the MoC matches the Kino, so there's not much point posting something that effectively looks identical. Sorry!
WHAT'S UP WITH THESE FUCKING GERMANS????????

How COULD they (lets be clear who the cuprits are: FWMS) do that after restoring the image at last in the last resto seen on the last Kino?

(sound of head banging against the wall).

Well I'm glad I didn't dump the last disc. The transfer & orig score are pretty nice to look at on the new discs it's true. I hate composite editions, like Moc/Milestone for a definitive TABU.. etc.

RidgeShark
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#103 Post by RidgeShark » Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:56 am

A real shame. In trying to see the glass as half-full, I'll say that at least the head-cropping isn't as bad as on many prior home video editions. Still, what a disappointment.

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HerrSchreck
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#104 Post by HerrSchreck » Wed Nov 21, 2007 12:22 pm

Yes the issue shouldnt in no way hold anyone back from buying this edition, thats for sure-- Nick et al did their usual bang up jobs with what they were handed, and the transfer and and restoration (especially the tinting and the contrast boosting vs the last edition... particularly versus the previous Bologna editiions) are a marvel in all other depts. Not to mention the fascination of the score, and the documentary from the Murnau foundation-- particularly as regards the person of Grau and his occultism-- are fascinating.

Not to mention the hints at camera moves, people strolling around the set, etc, visible via this new transfer (I actually checked the 2002 Kino and the guy in the shirtsleeves is visible in Orloks doorway.. but no hint of the camera move just before Orlok grabs Hutters finger for a cool refreshing draught).

Hashi
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:39 am

#105 Post by Hashi » Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:41 am

Beav comparison shows the Kino disc to be sharper but what are those crosscolouring (or some other video-) artefacts appearing on the MoC disc here and there? :| Yes I know I might me nitpicking but my screen is 92" so small becomes greater. But still I guess I'll be picking up the MoC disc because of the overall package.

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Tommaso
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#106 Post by Tommaso » Thu Nov 22, 2007 9:51 am

My impressions of the MoC, which I watched yesterday evening:

1) The chopped head is still bothering me and it's really deplorable, but 2) after watching this resto, I SIMPLY COULDN'T CARE ANYMORE ABOUT THIS ONE SHOT. In other words: I'm totally freaked-out and blown away. This looks plainly unbelievable good and borders on a miracle. They cleaned up the image marvellously, it looks absolutely beautiful, stable, with perfect colours and contrast. Great detail and clarity and absolutely in no way comparable to any earlier edition. I can't imagine I would want to see this in any other form anymore, Orlok's head notwithstanding.

What amazed me even more was the Erdmann music. The improvement on any other version I have heard before is even more pronounced than with Meisel vs Shostakovitch in the recent "Potemkin". Erdmann's music, being so steeped in late 19th century symphonic style a la Strauss and Mahler, greatly helps to appreciate what I always thought was one of the main origins of the film: German romanticism. And it does a marvel to suck you in and enhances what we see: we even hear the fatal cock crow now via some clarinet solo. It builds up a lot of suspense, especially nearing the end of the film. That's the first time since long ago that I found the film genuinely frightening, and I suppose this has to do with that wonderful music. And it's played and recorded so well (crystal clear sound with a lot of depth, and I only even played the normal stereo soundtrack) that one really has the feeling of sitting in some big Berlin cinema in the 20s watching the film 'live' (greatly enhanced by MoC's as usual extremely cinematic-looking transfer).

I haven't seen the documentary nor listened to the commentary yet, but managed to read the booklet. The first essay by Elsaesser isn't overly great, basically repeating all the psychoanalytical stuff re: sexual desire and Murnau's homosexuality specifically, points which indeed may be relevant as additional influences but which to me never seemed to touch the heart of the matter (and incidentally, Elsaesser constantly calls Hutter and Ellen by their Stoker names, Harker and Mina....well....an indication that he's probably too much influenced by 100 years of spookoanalysing "Dracula"). Truly great however is the second and much longer essay by Gilberto Perez, one of the most illuminating bits of writing on "Nosferatu" I yet came across. He makes convincing points about the film being less about repressed desire or the role of women in late 19th century society (which he correctly establishes as being the center of Stoker's novel) but argues that the film is about the confrontation with and attitudes towards death in various forms. And instead of any psychoanalytic guesswork he constantly makes his points by fabulously analysing the film itself and especially the camerawork. Truly illuminating! The rest of the writings are also nice, especially a charming short one by Grau about his inspiration for the film.

Looking at the Beaver comparison: the differences in sharpness seem neglectable to me, but not necessarily the heavier artificating on the Kino. Add to this the wonderful booklet, I'd personally go for the MoC. But in any case: Don't miss this version, just don't. This might easily be the disc of the year.

peerpee
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#107 Post by peerpee » Thu Nov 22, 2007 9:54 am

Unfortunately, there appears to be something wrong with the MoC grabs at DVDBeaver -- they are not representative of the MoC disc -- and I don't know why. Gary said the MoC DVD was showing as NTSC at his end (it's not, it's PAL) but there is some pretty horrendous halo-ing on his grabs which is not on the finished disc.

My own grabs, compared to the Beaver grabs:

MoC grab
Image

Dodgy DVDBeaver grab
Image


MoC grab
Image

Dodgy DVDBeaver grab
Image

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Tommaso
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#108 Post by Tommaso » Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:02 am

Hm? Gary writes: The Eureka MoC disc is in the PAL standard (region 0). The Kino is in the NTSC standard (also region 0). Perhaps he changed his review?
And I didn't notice any haloing on the MoC as well, just a very tiny bit of ghosting in one shot of the rats running around (absolutely not disturbing).

Hashi
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:39 am

#109 Post by Hashi » Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:04 am

peerpee wrote:Unfortunately, there appears to be something wrong with the MoC grabs at DVDBeaver -- they are not representative of the MoC disc -- and I don't know why. Gary said the MoC DVD was showing as NTSC at his end (it's not, it's PAL) but there is some pretty horrendous halo-ing on his grabs which is not on the finished disc.
Excellent, thanks for clearing this issue! ...up to place an order for your disc.

peerpee
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#110 Post by peerpee » Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:01 am

Tommaso wrote:Hm? Gary writes: The Eureka MoC disc is in the PAL standard (region 0). The Kino is in the NTSC standard (also region 0). Perhaps he changed his review?
I was referring to a private email.

And I didn't notice any haloing on the MoC as well, just a very tiny bit of ghosting in one shot of the rats running around (absolutely not disturbing).
All the MoC grabs at the Beaver site have an unsightly white haloing which looks like a kind of chroma problem, and throws the resolution off too. I have no idea what has caused it, but that's not representative of the finished disc, or grabs that I take of the same shots. Thankfully, Gary's getting the grabs redone. All should be fixed soon.

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denti alligator
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#111 Post by denti alligator » Thu Nov 22, 2007 12:22 pm

The Kino looks markedly sharper. Peerpee, is this a result of the haloing?

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Danny Burk
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#112 Post by Danny Burk » Thu Nov 22, 2007 1:00 pm

denti alligator wrote:The Kino looks markedly sharper. Peerpee, is this a result of the haloing?
My thought as well; I'm trying to determine if it's due to edge sharpening, but the screen cap resolution is too low to tell.

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denti alligator
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#113 Post by denti alligator » Thu Nov 22, 2007 1:36 pm

The MoC grabs on this page are still softer than the Kino grabs at the Beaver. Kinda troubling...

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Tommaso
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#114 Post by Tommaso » Thu Nov 22, 2007 2:08 pm

The very marginally brighter face of Orlok in caps 6 and 7 makes me suppose that the Kino has some very minor contrast boosting which might result in a sharper-appearing image. Or indeed edge enhancement, who knows? I can't imagine that anyone would be disappointed with either of the two editions, though.

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denti alligator
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#115 Post by denti alligator » Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:04 pm

Peerpee, that cap looks about the same on the Beaver site, and its the one in which the sharpness difference is least noticeable. Can you post caps that match some of the other grabs Gary made? I'm concerned about the softness of these. What do you think is making the difference?

peerpee
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#116 Post by peerpee » Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:51 pm

Denti, Gary's updated two of his MoC caps with the two I've posted here. That's why those two look the same. None of the others have been updated at time of writing. The DVDBeaver caps in this thread are hosted on my server and were the caps he had up earlier.

I've not seen the Kino disc, so I can't really explain any differences, but theirs looks cropped on the left and right slightly, so I'm wondering if they even used the same master we received. Their sharpness is impressive, however, these are interlaced discs and grabs can't always get across how sharp discs playback in motion, especially if a PC deinterlacer has been applied on software playback.

I'm now trying to work out with Gary why his grabs of the MoC set don't look like my grabs of the MoC set.

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Der Müde Tod
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:50 am

#117 Post by Der Müde Tod » Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:14 pm

As I've said before elsewhere, Beaver sometimes uses differently well compressed jpegs for their comparisons. The two grabs above differ by about a factor of 4 in size...

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SoyCuba
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#118 Post by SoyCuba » Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:22 am

It seems Gary has added more caps and most of those display the very same problem with colored edges. And by the way, the new cap taken by Nick isn't the exact same frame (look at the mouth). I'm still waiting if the situation changes, but at this moment I'm seriously thinking of buying the Kino instead of the MoC.

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HerrSchreck
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#119 Post by HerrSchreck » Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:50 am

Holy cow! I was preparing to get ready to sigh to myself & mutter that I'd have to get the MoC despite just buying the Kino. The differences between the second cap following the subtitle comps (of Knock in closeup here thinking to himself after reading the code note) look like the difference between SD (Eureka) & HD (Kino). Look at the fabric of the jacket & hair etc. They don't even look like they're from the same tape (as Nick suggested was possible, especially since Gary noted differences with the tinting schematic... Knock in these caps looks more amber on the MoC; how could the tinting be different when both are using the same beta?)

With it's own printed-essay-booklet & unique extras on the Kino I'll be holding off getting my dollar whacked to shreds on the overeas PAL market, since at best they're equal imagewise (if there was, say, a problem w Gary's comp...?). Booklets never get read more than once and commentaries never get listened to after the first time (if ever).

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NABOB OF NOWHERE
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#120 Post by NABOB OF NOWHERE » Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:11 am

[quote="HerrSchreck"]
With it's own printed-essay-booklet & unique extras on the Kino...


I'm intrigued by what is shown from the unreleased/lost titles on the Kino. The Beaver doesn't go into detail about these. Would you mind expanding a little on this so I can see if it's worth getting both please??

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HerrSchreck
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#121 Post by HerrSchreck » Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:20 am

I don't have the set in front of me but,

BOOKLET (not mentioned on beev): it's nowhere near the size of MoC or CC stuff... it's like the Kino POTEMKIN booklet, or NIBELUNGEN or MAN WHO LAUGHS.

Soundtrack (not mentioned on beev)is available in 5.1 as well as 2.0

Unique extras (vs MoC): there is a comparison (not mentioned on beev) between novel-- script-- screen, which examines the differences between the three. I think there's also the scene as played on the radio by Welles & co as an audio file.

Theres a photo allery of on-set stills, promo, posters, other publicity, etc.

There are pretty lengthy excerpts (some of them over ten minutes apiece) of Journey Into the Night (1920), The Haunted Castle (1921),
Phantom (1922), The Finances of the Grand Duke (1924),
The Last Laugh (1924), Tartuffe (1925),
Faust (1926), and Tabu (1931)
, a few of which will be interesting to folks, most of whom will not have seen Journey, Castle, and Duke.

And as noted you have the 2 versions of the film i e english or deutsch title cards.

The two docs on the MoC are on the Kino. I've watched the Kino on a few sets and I don't see the compression artifacting he's talking about. It doesnt look boosted either, it has that creamy yet sharp HD look visible in the Kino caps, and looks sublime in motion.

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Tommaso
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#122 Post by Tommaso » Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:18 am

SoyCuba wrote:It seems Gary has added more caps and most of those display the very same problem with colored edges. And by the way, the new cap taken by Nick isn't the exact same frame (look at the mouth). I'm still waiting if the situation changes, but at this moment I'm seriously thinking of buying the Kino instead of the MoC.
I really don't understand what is going on here (or at the Beaver). I rewatched the MoC yesterday in order to listen to the commentary (quite good, though not extraordinary), and after this discussion here I of course had a special look at the incriminated shots again, and let me repeat it: THERE IS NO HALOING ON THE MoC, there JUST ISN'T. Buy whatever edition you prefer, but don't let these caps make your decision.

I must admit that the lengthy excerpts from the other films on the Kino sound like a very intriguing extra. May I speculate/hope that Kino perhaps acquired the rights for these and will put them out? The thought alone makes me jump...

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Michael Kerpan
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#123 Post by Michael Kerpan » Fri Nov 23, 2007 10:22 am

I think some or all of the materials on the other "obscure" Murnau films might be on the older Kino DVD. This all sounds familiar from somewhere.

peerpee
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#124 Post by peerpee » Fri Nov 23, 2007 10:45 am

Beaver's now been updated. All the MoC grabs look like the disc now. We haven't got to the bottom of why Gary's grabs all had halos though. (The only notable difference is that Gary's got a PC and I've got a Mac.)

If anyone else on here with the MoC edition who can take good grabs at 95% JPG wants to have a go? --

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feckless boy
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#125 Post by feckless boy » Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:20 pm

The only notable difference is that Gary's got a PC and I've got a Mac

More likely different capturing-software, earlier Gary used PowerDVD which I don't think is available for Mac.

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