Charlie Chaplin and Criterion

News on Criterion and Janus Films.
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ianungstad
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Charlie Chaplin and Criterion

#1 Post by ianungstad » Mon Aug 03, 2009 10:13 am

http://www.criterionforums.com/forums/i ... #entry9945" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The deal has not been closed but it looks like Janus films is likely the new home for the Charlie Chaplin library. Wish I had a more official confirmation. What do people think?

onedimension
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Re: 'Forthcoming' Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.2

#2 Post by onedimension » Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:52 am

sweet, I guess. but why not Keaton in the Cri? is his stuff public domain?

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Jeff
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Re: 'Forthcoming' Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.2

#3 Post by Jeff » Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:03 pm

Great detective work, Ian! That series of messages indeed makes it sound like Janus is in the process of picking up the theatrical and video rights. Criterion has licensed plenty from Mk2 in the past. The region one transfers were highly problematic, so this is great news. With these being such high profile films, I wonder if Criterion will box them or portion them out over a couple of years.

Warner is really tightening their belts. They hardly release anything these days outside of their shitty DVRs, they've let the rights to My Fair Lady, the Chaplin library, and possibly their portion of the Castle Hill library lapse. Add to that the reversal of their long-standing position on never licensing to third parties, and they're hardly looking like the titans of the home video world any more.

Flike
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Re: 'Forthcoming' Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.2

#4 Post by Flike » Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:16 pm

ianungstad wrote:http://www.criterionforums.com/forums/i ... #entry9945

The deal has not been closed but it looks like Janus films is likely the new home for the Charlie Chaplin library. Wish I had a more official confirmation. What do people think?
Agreed with Jeff, great detective work. =D>

I really, really...really hope this is the case. Even the smallest likelihood of a City of Lights or Modern Times Criterion release puts a smile on my face.

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Tribe
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Re: 'Forthcoming' Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.2

#5 Post by Tribe » Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:22 pm

Flike wrote:
ianungstad wrote:http://www.criterionforums.com/forums/i ... #entry9945

The deal has not been closed but it looks like Janus films is likely the new home for the Charlie Chaplin library. Wish I had a more official confirmation. What do people think?
Agreed with Jeff, great detective work. =D>

I really, really...really hope this is the case. Even the smallest likelihood of a City of Lights or Modern Times Criterion release puts a smile on my face.
I've said it before, Ian comes up with the best researched and reasoned speculation of any regular on this Forum. I don't know if any have actually panned out yet, but I don't think any haven't either. I'm hoping he's correct on every one.

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oldsheperd
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Re: 'Forthcoming' Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.2

#6 Post by oldsheperd » Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:28 pm

The Chaplin news is indeed cool. I for one could have used a few more extras on the discs. Monsieur Verdoux was one film that I feel was overlooked.

cinemartin

Re: 'Forthcoming' Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.2

#7 Post by cinemartin » Mon Aug 03, 2009 3:28 pm

I'm hoping they do something nice with the First National films, like having them separate in their original form as well as The Chaplin Revue.

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knives
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Re: 'Forthcoming' Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.2

#8 Post by knives » Mon Aug 03, 2009 3:42 pm

If this does happen does it mean criterion will only get the features, or will they also have the shorts?

ianungstad
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Re: 'Forthcoming' Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.2

#9 Post by ianungstad » Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:13 pm

Tribe wrote:
Flike wrote:
ianungstad wrote:http://www.criterionforums.com/forums/i ... #entry9945

The deal has not been closed but it looks like Janus films is likely the new home for the Charlie Chaplin library. Wish I had a more official confirmation. What do people think?
Agreed with Jeff, great detective work. =D>

I really, really...really hope this is the case. Even the smallest likelihood of a City of Lights or Modern Times Criterion release puts a smile on my face.
I've said it before, Ian comes up with the best researched and reasoned speculation of any regular on this Forum. I don't know if any have actually panned out yet , but I don't think any haven't either. I'm hoping he's correct on every one.
In The Realm of The Senses and The Curious Case of Benjamin Button. :oops:

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Jeff
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Re: 'Forthcoming' Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.2

#10 Post by Jeff » Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:26 pm

knives wrote:If this does happen does it mean criterion will only get the features, or will they also have the shorts?
It would be all of the films distributed by Mk2 on behalf of the Chaplin estate. That means that it would not contain the Keystone, Essanay, or Mutual shorts, but it would likely have the First National shorts, which are in the public domain, but the quality elements are owned by the Chaplin estate. Here is what we would be looking at:

First National Shorts
A Dog's Life (1918 - 40 min.)
The Bond (1918 - 5 min.)
Sunnyside (1919 - 34 min.)
A Day's Pleasure (1919 - 25 min.)
The Idle Class (1921 - 32 min.)
Pay Day (1922 - 28 min.)

First National Features
Shoulder Arms (1918 - 46 min.)
The Kid (1921 - 68 min.)
The Pilgrim (1923 - 59 min.)

United Artists Features
A Woman of Paris (1923 - 93 min.)
The Gold Rush (1925 - 96 min.)
The Circus (1928 - 70 min.)
City Lights (1931 - 87 min.)
Modern Times (1936 - 87 min.)
The Great Dictator (1940 - 124 min.)
Monsieur Verdoux (1947 - 124 min.)
Limelight (1952 - 137 min.)
A King in New York (1957 - 110 min.)

Of course a few of these films have alternate versions, usually shorter with a new score, reissued by by Chaplin later in life. I assume Criterion would include both cuts. I'm thinking that they would separate the three shorts compiled by Chaplin as The Chaplin Revue in 1959, and show them at the correct speed (which Warner did not).

Hopefully, they will have access to the home movies and behind-the-scenes stuff that came on the Warner discs, but there is certainly room for improvement with the supplements, starting with some commentary tracks.

There are so many ways that Criterion could present these. Will they, either by choice or contractual requirement, create a separate line as for the Merchant Ivory Collection (this is basically what Warner did). Will they do a "Charlie Chaplin at First National" Eclipse set or mainline Criterion set? Will the shorts be used as supplements on the features (A Day's Pleasure really belongs on a disc with The Kid)? I imagine we won't start finding out until late 2010 with discs being released over a period of a year or more.

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Re: 'Forthcoming' Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.2

#11 Post by James » Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:29 pm

I expect we'll see a box set, and then a few of the more popular titles packaged with a few extra shorts as supplements.

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oldsheperd
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Re: 'Forthcoming' Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.2

#12 Post by oldsheperd » Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:44 pm

I kind of hope they don't release these in one big massive box. That's going to be a mighty expensive month!

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Tribe
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Re: 'Forthcoming' Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.2

#13 Post by Tribe » Mon Aug 03, 2009 6:14 pm

Jeff wrote:There are so many ways that Criterion could present these. Will they, either by choice or contractual requirement, create a separate line as for the Merchant Ivory Collection (this is basically what Warner did). Will they do a "Charlie Chaplin at First National" Eclipse set or mainline Criterion set? Will the shorts be used as supplements on the features (A Day's Pleasure really belongs on a disc with The Kid)? I imagine we won't start finding out until late 2010 with discs being released over a period of a year or more.
Thanks for taking the trouble to post that list, Jeff. I doubt the estate would insist on a separate line for any Chaplin films. I don't see how the Merchant Ivory films benefited from a separate line, and, if anything, that line likely suffered from not being more directly linked to the Criterion brand. I'd speculate a box set of the films with bells and whistles.

PS: I should add that Image has issued three releases of Chaplin's Essanay shorts (the third is out of print). Likewise, Image also has released a box set (and individual discs, I believe) of Chaplin's Mutual shorts.
Last edited by Tribe on Mon Aug 03, 2009 6:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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domino harvey
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Re: 'Forthcoming' Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.2

#14 Post by domino harvey » Mon Aug 03, 2009 6:16 pm

I would bet on individual releases myself, but one thing's for sure: When Criterion announces these, there's gonna be a huge pressapalooza for the films and the label

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bradass
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Re: 'Forthcoming' Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.2

#15 Post by bradass » Mon Aug 03, 2009 6:24 pm

I wouldn't be surprised if the Chaplin deal pans out, that these films aren't released in the Criterion Collection-proper but as their own line.

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Tribe
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Re: 'Forthcoming' Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.2

#16 Post by Tribe » Mon Aug 03, 2009 6:31 pm

bradass wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if the Chaplin deal pans out, that these films aren't released in the Criterion Collection-proper but as their own line.
Why would Criterion go through the expense of acquiring rights to these classic movies if they didn't get to slap a wacky "C" on them?

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oldsheperd
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Re: 'Forthcoming' Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.2

#17 Post by oldsheperd » Mon Aug 03, 2009 6:47 pm

CC releasing CC

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solaris72
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Re: 'Forthcoming' Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.2

#18 Post by solaris72 » Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:36 pm

This is great! I've always wanted to own Chaplin's features (I've got the old Image City Lights, which is a pretty good disc), but balked at the PAL/NTSC on the Warner region 1's, and just never got around to importing the region 2's.

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Re: 'Forthcoming' Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.2

#19 Post by Oggilby » Mon Aug 03, 2009 10:07 pm

I'm excited for either Criterion editions or a special line on the Chaplin films if the Janus Films deal goes through.

As for the First National films, they could probably split them to join The Kid and The Chaplin Revue on 2-disc editions. Put the three films featured in Revue on the second disc unedited, with the rest on The Kid. They can fit both cuts of The Kid on one disc, in fact.

Then there's the possibility of Modern Times and The Great Dictator having BluRay editions since they had full 2K restorations.

I couldn't help but think MK2 didn't put enough effort into their editions. The documentaries are a bit fluffy except for Kevin Brownlow's for The Great Dictator. They left off the great re-recording Carl Davis made for City Lights and didn't have a single commentary recorded. Then Warner's PAL ghosted imports... bleh

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justeleblanc
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Re: 'Forthcoming' Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.2

#20 Post by justeleblanc » Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:00 pm

Dah THESE FILMS ARE ALREADY ON DVD.

F M L

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Cold Bishop
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Re: 'Forthcoming' Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.2

#21 Post by Cold Bishop » Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:09 am

What's the likelihood of the original versions from the Image DVDs popping up? Or does the Chaplin estate like to only endorse the re-edits?

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Re: 'Forthcoming' Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.2

#22 Post by Cinephrenic » Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:57 am

I doubt we will see some kind of box. I'm sure Criterion would like to make as much money as possible. There is gonna be tons of extras for sure.

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Murdoch
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Re: 'Forthcoming' Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.2

#23 Post by Murdoch » Tue Aug 04, 2009 1:50 pm

justeleblanc wrote:Dah THESE FILMS ARE ALREADY ON DVD.

F M L
I will never get tired of watching that.

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Re: 'Forthcoming' Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.2

#24 Post by Oggilby » Tue Aug 04, 2009 1:55 pm

It shouldn't be difficult to include both original and re-release cuts of all films.

The Kid: Original cut is 68 min. (with speed correction), the re-release is 50 min. Both cuts can fit a single DVD-9 with room to spare. The second disc can have the remaining First National films not featured in The Chaplin Revue. The combined length of Sunnside, A Day's Pleasure, Pay Day, and The Idle Class is about 120 min. (34/25/32/28 min. respectively). Would require 2-disc set.

The Chaplin Revue (and Shoulder Arms, The Pilgrim, and A Dog's Life): 1959 compilation is 120 min.; three original cuts are a combined 146 min. with speed correction (40/46/60 min. respectively). Obviously would require 2-disc set.

A Woman of Paris has both the original 1923 and 1976 re-release cuts, which are both around 90-110 min. each. Probably would require a 2-disc set. Original cut would need re-edited score. No idea if inclusion of both is necessary.

The Gold Rush has the original 1925 and 1942 re-release cuts. Would need a 2-disc set since the cuts are 96 min. and 82 min. respectively.

The Circus probably only needs one cut, with only the option to watch it with or without the 1971 re-release credits song.

City Lights only has one cut, but with the option of the original 1931 score or the 1988 Carl Davis re-recording. Only physical change is a single title card with the United Artists credit blacked out.

Modern Times only has two physical changes: opening titles poorly altered to delete a United Artists credit and the cuff song shortened. Most likely would only need seamless branching.

The Great Dictator's only change is the United Artists credit removed.

Monsieur Verdoux never had any changes, apparently.

Limelight only had one scene removed for general release, could either be seamless branched or stay as a deleted scene (even the Image DVD had it separate).

A King in New York has two cuts with minor changes, but I think both Image and MK2 used the original longer British version.


Short version:

The Kid, The Chaplin Revue, and The Gold Rush are sure-fire 2-disc sets to accomodate multiple cuts and extra films. A Woman of Paris might use two cuts, but not necessary probably. City Lights just needs two soundtrack options. Modern Times, Limelight, and The Circus really only need seamless branching. Monsieur Verdoux, A King in New York, and The Great Dictator are good as-is.

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Re: 'Forthcoming' Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.2

#25 Post by kaujot » Tue Aug 04, 2009 1:57 pm

I still can't believe this could be happening.

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