Dekalog and Other Television Works

Discuss releases from Arrow and the films on them.

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tenia
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Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#176 Post by tenia » Tue Nov 15, 2016 3:36 am

On the other end, Jeffrey noted :
- the difference in frame rate
- the releases' soundtracks are a semi-ton apart (they are)
- the additional info in the frame on the Arrow
- the difference in brightness (Arrow being darker)

It's however disappointing he didn't take the time to list in his review the extra features, especially since he screencaptured most of them (meaning he had to playback them at least once on his computer).


On another subject, turned out my order was shipped after all this night. I'm now wondering if Arrow's CS read my email yesterday about me wanting to cancel my order. I might have 2 Dekalog copies now, since I ordered one from Amazon.co.uk yesterday, which also shipped this evening...

Costa
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Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#177 Post by Costa » Tue Nov 15, 2016 5:33 am

M Sanderson wrote:So Blu-ray.com marked the PQ down to just 4, because the "other works" aren't as good quality as the Dekalog itself. Even though the Arrow has the right frame rate, better black levels and is said to look better in motion by other reviewers it receives a lower rating than the Criterion (4.5).

They really do seem to have a bit of an agenda in marking up some labels and finding ways to mark down others.
bluray.com seems to be a Criterion vehicle.
i was surprised too that (although i understand they are 2 different reviewers) it got less for picture quality when the Arrow one is clearly superior!
MichaelB wrote:The "other works" are extras.

Did the Criterion Kes get a poor mark for picture quality because Cathy Come Home looked terrible? Logically, the answer has to be yes, but I bet it didn't.
Well, for starters, the Criterion New World got 5 stars in video quality, although the 2 cuts out of 3 of the film (which i don't think they're considered extras) are much inferior to the extended cut in video quality.
but that didn't stop the "reviewer"-advertiser from giving it 5 stars. although i think, all 3 cuts should be equally considered. (he did mention though in his review that those 2 cuts are much inferior)
that says a lot, and confirms once again what we know so far about that site and how it works, "pushing" certain labels..
Fortunately it's not the only review site on the internet.

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Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#178 Post by tenia » Tue Nov 15, 2016 9:16 am

Costa wrote:i was surprised too that (although i understand they are 2 different reviewers) it got less for picture quality when the Arrow one is clearly superior!
The review opens on the following : "Note: The scores above are averages for both the "main" Dekalog offering as well as the "other television works" (some of which are in less than great condition and some of which are upscaled). Please see the video and audio sections below for more information. "
It ends on : "While some of those "other" television offerings sport video that can't overcome source limitations, the set's "main feature" looks stunning."
Costa wrote:Well, for starters, the Criterion New World got 5 stars in video quality, although the 2 cuts out of 3 of the film (which i don't think they're considered extras) are much inferior to the extended cut in video quality.
I think you're looking too much into this.

As domino wrote, the set explicitly advertises "... And Other TV Works", so they will / should be taken into account.

The New World only advertises as main feature the newly restored Extended Cut, and thus only this cut as been reviewed and scored at blu-ray.com (the other 2 cuts are even listed only as extra features). I too don't think it's very consumer-minded (Chris developped more about the differences in his review, and I think it's better because, as Chris also wrote, you might prefer other cuts over the Extended one), but it's consistent with other blu-ray.com's reviews.

Are the extra Chaplin or Lloyd shorts weighing into PQ ? Nope. The short films on Fantastic Planet ? On purge bébé on La chienne ? Diary of Yunbogi on Death by Hanging ? Le coup du berger on Paris Belongs to Us ? Nope.

The only recent one I'm aware of and which doesn't follow this rule might be Shogun Assassin, which to me should be considered as an extra feature (it's weirdly ponderated in blu-ray.com's PQ score anyway : it has 4.25 while the 6 movies have 4.75, but PQ score is... 5.0). There might be other cases like this (or maybe in the opposite way, like The Beales of Grey Gardens which, to me, is a main feature but is treated like an extra), but in a general way, if it's advertised as main features (and this set has "Other TV works in its title !), it's almost always weighing in the technical score.

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Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#179 Post by Costa » Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:14 am

thanks Tenia, but i already read all these.
Funny because I'd say you're looking too much into this and we're playing with words here.
In any case, i consider the theatrical cut of a film, much more important than some supplements to a milestone mini series, therefore i remain in my opinion that either those cuts on the new world should be considered in the rating, or else the TV works on the Arrow Decalogue shouldn't be considered in the video rating.

All reviewers at that site should review and put stars with the SAME system and not different.
They should agree whether they will count the picture quality of the extras in the video rating (and not when it comes to Criterion they don't and when it comes to other labels they do).

The thing that the "Other TV works" is in the title of the Arrow set, doesn't say anything more to me personally than being just some bonus features, and they put it so that the consumer knows what is more in the set. The main release is the Decalogue!

edit: by the way i don't see on the cover of Criterion's the New World saying: The New World: the extended cut (so, why count only this in the rating if the bluray.com policy is to count only what's on the title? that's why i'm saying we're playing with words here)
And i really really doubt that if the Arrow set hadn't had the "other tv works" in the title, they wouldn't count on the overall video rating.
Do you honestly think so?
also, i was under the impression that all 3 versions of the film count in the rating of On the Waterfront Bluray.
If not, then which version did they count?

and something else:

ok, let's accept that Criterion's Decalogue is 4,5 stars in video quality.
Arrow's is much better evidently, so the decalogue alone should receive 5. now, since you like to count the other tv works, half a point off would be enough i think, so that the overall video quality score comes to 4,5 also..
but it seems the bluray.com agenda doesn't permit for another release to get higher than Criterion. Even if it is so.

i'm really wondering if there is any example of a generally regarded superior Arrow (or other label's) version having higher score than the Criterion release of the same film.
is there any example? (unless it was a newer restoration)

disclaimer: i don't support any label!*
It's that i like to see fairness in things.

*sorry, it seems i thought in another language and wrote this. :lol:
i meant, i'm not in favour of any label.

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Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#180 Post by tenia » Tue Nov 15, 2016 11:25 am

On The Waterfront's 3 presentations are all sourced from the same 4K restoration. Even if they were all 3 weighing in the PQ score, it wouldn't make any difference, they would all score the same because they're just looking the same.
Costa wrote:edit: by the way i don't see on the cover of Criterion's the New World saying: The New World: the extended cut (so, why count only this in the rating if the bluray.com policy is to count only what's on the title? that's why i'm saying we're playing with words here)
Criterion has only restored in 4K ONE cut, which has been deemed to be the director prefered one. The other two are included for the sake of completeness. I believe Criterion's advertising has always been clear on this (including the fact they have only shown clips of the restoration of the extended cut, and also in the booklet details about the extended cut). You can choose, also for the sake of completeness, to give a separate score for all 3 cuts, but I don't think any website has aggregated the 3 scores in the end anyway.
Costa wrote:Arrow's is much better evidently, so the decalogue alone should receive 5. now, since you like to count the other tv works, half a point off would be enough i think, so that the overall video quality score comes to 4,5 also.
Considering what seems to be the technical merits of at least some of the TV work presentation, I doubt they would get a 4 on PQ. Being SD upscales, one of them being noticeably cropped to 1.78, I suspect they would get a 2.5 max while the HD sourced one might get 3.5-4.
Costa wrote:i'm really wondering if there is any example of a generally regarded superior Arrow (or other label's) version having higher score than the Criterion release of the same film. is there any example? (unless it was a newer restoration)
If it's only negligibly superior, they don't, or only 0.5 pt. At most, I don't think I gave more than 1 pt out of 12 more to Thief and Shoah on PQ myself (maybe 1.5 on Shoah). And I don't think anybody should : the Criterion releases are very good in their own rights, they're just not flawless. We've learnt to be more critical but a small flaw doesn't mean one should thrown it in the garbage. That's where lies the tell-all answer : has an Arrow encode or an Arrow additionnal cleaning ever made a difference deemed bigger than 20% on PQ ? I love David's work and I don't like many poor Criterion's encode, but I don't think so.
Costa wrote:All reviewers at that site should review and put stars with the SAME system and not different.
While it's obvious one reviewer there has a topoth to grind somehow, I think I made my point earlier showing that there is a consistency on blu-ray.com's between different reviews even when they're from different reviewers. If this wasn't enough for you, I give up. Again, you're looking too close and, as always, if one looks close enough for things to pick, you'll always find some. Fairness is also acknoledgeing one might be seeing agendas that actually aren't there. :wink:

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Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#181 Post by Costa » Tue Nov 15, 2016 11:42 am

tenia wrote: We've learnt to be more critical but a small flaw doesn't mean one should thrown it in the garbage.

of course not.
my point here is what many of us already know:

there's always a leniency towards Criterion, or if you take it the other way, a strictness to certain other labels in that specific forum.

That's why when someone says anything remotely negative about Criterion all hell breaks lose, but if he says it for another label, there's no consequences whatsoever.
Last edited by Costa on Tue Nov 15, 2016 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#182 Post by MichaelB » Tue Nov 15, 2016 11:44 am

tenia wrote:Considering what seems to be the technical merits of at least some of the TV work presentation, I doubt they would get a 4 on PQ. Being SD upscales, one of them being noticeably cropped to 1.78, I suspect they would get a 2.5 max while the HD sourced one might get 3.5-4.
Maximum. I've never made any inflated claims for the presentational quality of the non-Dekalog TV work - whatever the package's overall title, I've always personally regarded them as essentially feature-length extras along the same lines as the supporting features on Black Sunday, Beyond the Valley of the Dolls and Branded to Kill.

That said, I think David Mackenzie worked absolute miracles on them given what we were supplied with!

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Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#183 Post by M Sanderson » Tue Nov 15, 2016 4:14 pm

MichaelB wrote:The "other works" are extras.

Did the Criterion Kes get a poor mark for picture quality because Cathy Come Home looked terrible? Logically, the answer has to be yes, but I bet it didn't.
That website - while at times very useful - is clearly manipulating scores. Little bit insidious, to try and basically guide what people are buying.


They also seem to overlook issues with Criterion titles such as several minutes of inferior source material in a 5/5 release Anatomy of a Murder, or artificial darkening in a number of titles.

And rating the TT release of The Other above the Eureka, even coming from different reviewers this was odd, suspicious even.

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Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#184 Post by M Sanderson » Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:22 pm

Costa wrote:
M Sanderson wrote:So Blu-ray.com marked the PQ down to just 4, because the "other works" aren't as good quality as the Dekalog itself. Even though the Arrow has the right frame rate, better black levels and is said to look better in motion by other reviewers it receives a lower rating than the Criterion (4.5).

They really do seem to have a bit of an agenda in marking up some labels and finding ways to mark down others.
bluray.com seems to be a Criterion vehicle.
i was surprised too that (although i understand they are 2 different reviewers) it got less for picture quality when the Arrow one is clearly superior!
MichaelB wrote:The "other works" are extras.

Did the Criterion Kes get a poor mark for picture quality because Cathy Come Home looked terrible? Logically, the answer has to be yes, but I bet it didn't.
Well, for starters, the Criterion New World got 5 stars in video quality, although the 2 cuts out of 3 of the film (which i don't think they're considered extras) are much inferior to the extended cut in video quality.
but that didn't stop the "reviewer"-advertiser from giving it 5 stars. although i think, all 3 cuts should be equally considered. (he did mention though in his review that those 2 cuts are much inferior)
that says a lot, and confirms once again what we know so far about that site and how it works, "pushing" certain labels..
Fortunately it's not the only review site on the internet.
yes there is definitive favouritism and manipulation of scores. It appears they're trying for an average 4.5 for Criterion and an average 3.5 for Arrow and Eureka.

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Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#185 Post by Ribs » Tue Nov 15, 2016 9:42 pm

Well, I think there is a genuine reason for that, though - Arrow is usually using masters that aren't as good as the ones Criterion use, and don't have deep enough pockets to fund all-new restorations on their own very often (Criterion's the only label that can, really). I think I would agree that most Arrow (Video, especially) releases don't look that great, as they tend to just be an HD master off the shelf. When they look great they tend to look far better than a great Criterion release due to the improved encoding but that's the exception rather than the rule. But I buy maybe only half a dozen of the regular Video releases a year so I may have a skewed viewpoint.

I'm much more upset about the continual ignorance of the importance of booklets to these UK releases, though; I can at least understand *why* the Video score is so weird even if I may not agree. Thankfully this release seems to at least get an acknowledgment that he's *read* them, even if it's kind of strangely short on detail.

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Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#186 Post by swo17 » Tue Nov 15, 2016 11:10 pm

Ribs wrote:I think I would agree that most Arrow (Video, especially) releases don't look that great, as they tend to just be an HD master off the shelf.
I beg to differ. Granted, there are lots of releases I haven't watched, but my most frequent impression is "looks far better than the movie deserves!"

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Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#187 Post by tenia » Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:14 am

They sadly often rely on decade-old HD masters from MGM, which indeed places them below Criterion which almost never relies on pre-existing masters (out of a few exceptions).
Ribs wrote:I'm much more upset about the continual ignorance of the importance of booklets to these UK releases, though
It's a core element for many releases and yet, they're indeed too often not even looked at. Some reviews reads as if the reviewer didn't even tried to have a look at it. While it's a bit more complicated now because the booklets simply aren't as easily available to reviewers than in the past, when reviewers do get one, why don't they go a bit deeper into them ?

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Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#188 Post by M Sanderson » Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:23 am

Arrow do use older masters, especially MGM. And Universal. Some looking surprisingly good, some looking dated. But they also use excellent restorations especially of European films. They are also shrewd, bringing us Twilight Time titles for better value for money and bringing us astonishing masters of titles Criterion never upgraded (thinking, Salvatore Giuliano). And they produce their own restorations as well, 2 and 4K remaster not from the original negative - and from original negative with To Live and Die in LA and Al Garcia bring two major titles forthcoming. A good range, really. In terms of productivity, quality and range of titles they are high level indeed.
Last edited by M Sanderson on Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:41 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#189 Post by rapta » Wed Nov 16, 2016 2:05 pm

No need to panic about this selling out anytime soon, by the way. Arrow just confirmed they stocked Amazon/HMV/Zavvi etc with too much stock and are returning some back to their store so it'll be available again from them soon. Also, it's limited to 3000 copies and I'd be surprised if a £50 set like this had sold more than half of that already (especially since there are US, Polish and French options available to collectors in other territories). I'll be getting it soon though as it does sound like it's shifting even quicker than The Human Condition (which I also plan on getting before it sells out).

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Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#190 Post by MichaelB » Wed Nov 16, 2016 2:07 pm

Do you plan on getting The Human Condition? You've never mentioned that before.

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Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#191 Post by TMDaines » Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:28 am

TMDaines wrote:It seems to have come as a surprise to Arrow as much as anyone that this sold as well as it did. I just ordered for £40.54 from Flubit.
My Flubit order was fulfilled by Zavvi/thehut. Came well packaged with air bubbles filling its box.

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Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#192 Post by M Sanderson » Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:34 pm

I've watched Dekalog 1-3 from this set. Wonderful drama, Kieslowski exploring some unlikely connections between people, overcoming difficult barriers. Really assured storytelling, patient, restrained and confident, and always surprising. Part one was devastating but all three are deeply felt, thawing out characters who don't connect easily with others. Most important details are implied, either through dialogue natural to the characters or with cinematic imagery and potent (though never overstated) symbolic details.

Transfers are very strong, maybe the best TV to Blu ray I've seen. Looking remarkably crisp. Separation of colours, wood tones and shades are very convincing; details in hair, skin and fabric razor sharp; Kieslowski's sparing use of strange red and green lighting extremely vibrant; rain, snow and cold breaths clearly visible.

What a remarkable year for TV drama on Blu ray with the two Ken Russell sets and the Alan Clarke set by the BFI and now this from Arrow Academy.

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Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#193 Post by Big Ben » Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:57 pm

Received my set yesterday and was immediately struck at how good the packaging was. The massive book included in a real treat and I enjoyed reading Father Lis' commentary on the series. Great stuff! I hope all this hard work is rewarded Arrow!

Maybe it's my youthful inexperience but I was quite surprised to learn that Dekalog wasn't religious pandering (Described as finger-wagging on the box!) and is described (By MichaelB I think?) instead as a work of great moral philosophy. I cannot wait to dive in and experience this for myself!

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Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#194 Post by M Sanderson » Sat Nov 26, 2016 10:55 am

This set is getting stronger and stronger with each episode. I'm on Dekalog Five, known in the longer version as A Short Film About Killing. This could have been a difficult film to present to Blu ray, with its dark lenses and sickly colour schemes but everything comes across as remarkably heterogeneous, colours, shadows and tones all remaining distinct. This episode I feel is one best Blu rays I've ever seen, certainly the best of a Kieślowski film, with wonderful fine grain and detail. Artificial Eye and Criterion's releases of Double Life of Veronique earned the highest praise of any Kieślowski release with 5/5 scores on Blu-ray.com but this set calls that rating (of an albeit outstanding release) into question now.

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Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#195 Post by M Sanderson » Sun Nov 27, 2016 3:21 am

Just wondering though, is there supposed to be that clicking, kind of hiss noise in the background from around after the half an hour in mark, around the time the film goes to the prison. Dekalog Five. Could mine be faulty?

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Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#196 Post by Costa » Sun Nov 27, 2016 6:58 pm

Any estimate when this will be back in stock at arrow shop?

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Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#197 Post by domino harvey » Sun Nov 27, 2016 7:01 pm

Never?

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Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#198 Post by Big Ben » Sun Nov 27, 2016 9:59 pm

There are still copies available at Amazon UK.

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Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#199 Post by Costa » Mon Nov 28, 2016 3:14 am

domino harvey wrote:Never?
I'm sure I remember Arrow saying that this will be back in stock in their shop. It was here in this forum somewhere..

edit: Oh, it was mentioned just a few posts above by rapta:
Arrow just confirmed they stocked Amazon/HMV/Zavvi etc with too much stock and are returning some back to their store so it'll be available again from them soon
Big Ben wrote:There are still copies available at Amazon UK.
I know, but I'd like to use some bonus points I have at Arrow.

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Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#200 Post by FrauBlucher » Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:19 pm

Before I happily sink money into this set, I would like to know if anyone has had issues on their all region players with this? I read one review on Amazon that the person saw jutters and ghosting. I have an LG BD630 player and Sony tv (older set).
Last edited by FrauBlucher on Tue Nov 29, 2016 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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