Dekalog and Other Television Works

Discuss releases from Arrow and the films on them.

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phoenix474
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2016 6:17 pm

Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#201 Post by phoenix474 » Tue Nov 29, 2016 7:13 pm

FrauBlucher wrote:Before I happily sink money into this set, I would like to know if anyone has had issues on their all region players with this? I read one review on Amazon that the person saw jutters and ghosting. I have an LG player and Sony tv.
I have no problems with a region-free Sony player, but I have a European LG TV

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chiendent
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:32 pm

Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#202 Post by chiendent » Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:16 am

Just watched the first episode and no problems here (Seiki player and a pretty standard USA Samsung HDTV). I was worried my TV would have problems playing it since I hadn't tested anything else that's 25fps but I'm glad I took the risk, damn this looks gorgeous.

David M.
Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 1:10 pm

Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#203 Post by David M. » Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:21 am

Before I happily sink money into this set, I would like to know if anyone has had issues on their all region players with this? I read one review on Amazon that the person saw jutters and ghosting. I have an LG player and Sony tv.
Sounds like the player doing a bad quality frame rate conversion (50->60hz). Or incorrect TV setup - sadly there are so many variables and it falls into the user's hands to get the setup correct.

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senseabove
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:07 am

Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#204 Post by senseabove » Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:26 pm

I've got the Seiki player (converting to 60) and a BenQ projector and it looks gorgeous.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Ribs
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2014 1:14 pm

Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#205 Post by Ribs » Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:48 am

I use a HTPC and, though I need to set the frame rate myself in the display settings to avoid a jutter, have no problems at all. A good standalone player should fix it with no trouble though.

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ikms
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 8:18 pm
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Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#206 Post by ikms » Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:16 pm

Ribs wrote:A good standalone player should fix it with no trouble though.
I think the problem is players don't specify this aspect of playback in their feature set. Even a "region free" BD player might convert 50i content to 60p outside of the users control (as we see in this thread, and is the case with two of mine). My Panasonic has obvious visible shimmering, but with my Toshiba I only ever noticed the 50-60 judder on some panning shots (Alan Clarke steadicam brought this to light). To get the most out of Dekalog I finally imported a native UK model (LG BP250) and now I am getting true 25Hz content (at 50p of course). The AC adapter adapts to any mains source, I just needed to get a dummy prong adapter (100yen) to physically plug it in. It was one of the few players Amazon would send overseas, but even with S&H it came to ~6000yen. Considering the mountains of PAL DVDs I still have on hand, this was a great deal!

Costa
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2010 5:10 pm

Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#207 Post by Costa » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:12 pm

CONGRATULATIONS ARROW!

https://www.cine-vue.com/2016/12/the-be ... -2016.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

oh, my, i see a certain someone sending an email to that site making a fuss about not including any Criterion in the top 5 releases! :lol:
(or about including Arrow's Dekalog instead of Criterion's)

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Gregory
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 4:07 pm

Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#208 Post by Gregory » Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:08 pm

But I see they gave Criterion an extra advantage by naming one of their sets from 2012 among the best releases of this year.

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MichaelB
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Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#209 Post by MichaelB » Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:42 am

Costa wrote:CONGRATULATIONS ARROW!

https://www.cine-vue.com/2016/12/the-be ... -2016.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

oh, my, i see a certain someone sending an email to that site making a fuss about not including any Criterion in the top 5 releases! :lol:
(or about including Arrow's Dekalog instead of Criterion's)
It's a UK site, so they're obviously going to favour local product. Similarly, US sites are tending to opt for the Criterion Dekalog.

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tenia
Ask Me About My Bassoon
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Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#210 Post by tenia » Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:06 am

Gregory wrote:But I see they gave Criterion an extra advantage by naming one of their sets from 2012 among the best releases of this year.
In the UK, it's technically a 2016 release.

Costa
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2010 5:10 pm

Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#211 Post by Costa » Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:46 pm

This is back in stock in the Arrow shop.
Does anyone know if they package their boxes safely?
Because I understand many people had problems with amazon with this release.

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Ribs
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2014 1:14 pm

Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#212 Post by Ribs » Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:53 pm

Arrow's usually very good at including multiple layers of bubble wrap and I've never had any trouble over the past few years.

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swo17
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Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#213 Post by swo17 » Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:22 pm

Yeah, their packaging is usually very solid. My Dekalog came damaged actually but a replacement is on its way.

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Landjorden
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:16 am
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Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#214 Post by Landjorden » Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:42 pm

Never had a problem with Arrows packaging, Amazon UK is usually ok but Amazon.com is the worst, 6-7 blurays in a big jiffy bag, usually never arrives without damage. I have a feeling this is just for the exported stuff, don't think they do the same with domesic orders.

Costa
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2010 5:10 pm

Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#215 Post by Costa » Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:50 pm

Ok, thank you for your replies.

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perkizitore
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Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#216 Post by perkizitore » Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:50 pm

I have a replacement on the way from Amazon, if that arrives torn too, I will have to order from Arrow direct!

alvareo
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:01 pm

Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#217 Post by alvareo » Thu Jan 19, 2017 7:38 am

So, seems like there's some issues with the audio here

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TMDaines
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Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#218 Post by TMDaines » Thu Jan 19, 2017 7:49 am

Oops. So the audio has a higher pitch than what it should, even though it is playing back at the correct speed.

Moshrom
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Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#219 Post by Moshrom » Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:12 am

So is this being looked into? I've confirmed that all ten episodes are pitched ~0.7 semitones higher than the Polish blu-rays, the Polish Warner DVDs, and the soundtrack CDs.

I would like an answer.

M Sanderson
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2016 3:43 am

Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#220 Post by M Sanderson » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:07 am

A question, does it make a difference to the untrained ear?

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TMDaines
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Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#221 Post by TMDaines » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:57 am

Nope, but to the trained ear it's a pretty grievous error and strips the "definitive" tag from the Arrow set.

FWIW, it makes no difference to me.

Moshrom
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Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#222 Post by Moshrom » Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:13 am

There's an A/V comparison included in the blog post linked above.


I think anyone should be able to tell the difference during any moments with music (especially sustained single notes, like the theme that opens each episode), but yes - if you can tolerate PAL speed-up, you'd be fine with it.

Ahab
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 10:43 am

Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#223 Post by Ahab » Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:49 am

Moshrom wrote: I think anyone should be able to tell the difference during any moments with music (especially sustained single notes, like the theme that opens each episode), but yes - if you can tolerate PAL speed-up, you'd be fine with it.
I would concur. I would not consider myself as one with a trained ear, but I found the theme music at the start to be almost gratingly high pitched when compared to the Criterion edition. But the dialog and other sounds during the playing of the episodes have overall not been noticeably different to me.

It would be nice to get an official response regarding this issue.

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PianoMan88
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2016 4:50 am
Location: Toronto, ON

Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#224 Post by PianoMan88 » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:04 pm

I think the comments regarding the ever so slight pitch alterations are blowing things out of proportions here. I feel compelled to add my own views.

As a professional musician, classical (the anal kind of musician, if you are wondering) and as a person with perfect pitch (not all musicians have perfect pitch, and a very small percentage of the general public does), 0.7 of a semitone is very, very hard to detect. We are talking about a half of a semitone, or a quarter-tone (something used sparingly in some modern music).

The only way a TRAINED musician would be able to tell of such a difference throughout a musical excerpt is if they knew the piece in question first hand, meaning they had performed it themselves or composed it themselves OR if it was part of the canon (very popular works that are heard often).

I tend not to think of any edition as definitive, but if you thought this was definitive before then there should be absolutely no reason not to the think the same after this discovery.

It would be interesting to know how the change came about, but to call it a "grievous error" or an "issue" is very exaggerated, especially since I would bet almost no one (outside of a very small group of people linked with the composition and production of the score) would be able to blindly tell which one they are hearing in a blind listening test (if I played only one of the editions, either Arrow or Polish).

Moshrom
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Location: Canada

Re: Dekalog and Other Television Works

#225 Post by Moshrom » Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:20 pm

I don't think it's a stretch at all to call this a "grievous error" given the considerable efforts taken to verify the intended speed and pitch of the episodes. I mean, the visual difference between 23.976 and 25 fps shouldn't really make much of a difference to anyone, but the corresponding shift in pitch absolutely should.

I disagree that a difference of 0.7 semitones is too minor to worry over. Again, it's equivalent to PAL speed-up, which is well-established as being something that even untrained, non-musicians can notice.

While I only have pretty strong relative pitch myself, people even without that should be able to tell the difference -- whenever I catch some American sit-com being broadcast in Europe (this being the best example, I think, of knowing 'the piece in question beforehand'), even my less fastidious travelling companions have pointed out that Jerry, Elaine, Kramer, et al. sound different.

If anyone who doesn't consider themselves 'trained' or a musician would like additional samples of isolated notes pitched 0.7 semitones apart, just let me know. ...I'm pretty confident that anyone would be able to discern the difference.

The 'you need to know the footage well beforehand to tell the difference' argument isn't very compelling because it just downplays an objective flaw according to the (in)attentiveness of the viewer.
Ahab wrote:
Moshrom wrote:I think anyone should be able to tell the difference during any moments with music (especially sustained single notes, like the theme that opens each episode), but yes - if you can tolerate PAL speed-up, you'd be fine with it.
I would concur. I would not consider myself as one with a trained ear, but I found the theme music at the start to be almost gratingly high pitched when compared to the Criterion edition. But the dialog and other sounds during the playing of the episodes have overall not been noticeably different to me.
To be clear, the Criterion discs are pitched 1.4 semitones lower than the Arrow discs.

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