Joker (Todd Phillips, 2019)

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mfunk9786
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Re: Joker (Todd Phillips, 2019)

#201 Post by mfunk9786 » Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:58 pm

I think they were nihilists, actually


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Big Ben
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Re: Joker (Todd Phillips, 2019)

#203 Post by Big Ben » Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:41 pm

This is a common troll tactic that's been to quite a few things unfortunately. This happened to NFL team too. And they're way bigger than Joker.

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Re: Joker (Todd Phillips, 2019)

#204 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:39 pm

quim_font wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:44 pm
Have to wonder what the next "impart current social issue onto existing IP" film is going to be: Captain America going though a contemptuous divorce? Wonder Woman running to be the first woman U.S. president? Spider-man drowning under student debt?
When is he going to finally be a Spider "Man"? He seems to be perpetually between his teens and twenties. I want to see him grow a beard, leave the toilet seat up, defend the artistic integrity of Styx albums and use his webbing abilities to spruce up his man-cave.

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movielocke
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Re: Joker (Todd Phillips, 2019)

#205 Post by movielocke » Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:58 pm

flyonthewall2983 wrote:
quim_font wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:44 pm
Have to wonder what the next "impart current social issue onto existing IP" film is going to be: Captain America going though a contemptuous divorce? Wonder Woman running to be the first woman U.S. president? Spider-man drowning under student debt?
When is he going to finally be a Spider "Man"? He seems to be perpetually between his teens and twenties. I want to see him grow a beard, leave the toilet seat up, defend the artistic integrity of Styx albums and use his webbing abilities to spruce up his man-cave.
I think you just described about an eighth of “Spider-Man into the spider verse”

Jack Kubrick
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Re: Joker (Todd Phillips, 2019)

#206 Post by Jack Kubrick » Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:18 pm

Last edited by Jack Kubrick on Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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The Narrator Returns
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Re: Joker (Todd Phillips, 2019)

#207 Post by The Narrator Returns » Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:30 pm

I just hate it when society gets too woke to laugh at Ben Stiller covering his dick with a hand towel.

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Cash Flagg
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Re: Joker (Todd Phillips, 2019)

#208 Post by Cash Flagg » Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:00 pm

The real tragedy is that audiences will forever be deprived of the riveting final chapter in the Hangover Quadrilogy "because all the f*cking funny guys are like, ‘F*ck this shit".

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mfunk9786
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Re: Joker (Todd Phillips, 2019)

#209 Post by mfunk9786 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:00 pm

*Chappelle

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Re: Joker (Todd Phillips, 2019)

#210 Post by Jack Kubrick » Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:36 pm

mfunk9786 wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:00 pm
*Chappelle
Macbook autocorrect keeps thinking it's spelled with one p. More prove that artificial intelligence still has a way to go to match humanity intelligence and stupidit
Last edited by Jack Kubrick on Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Joker (Todd Phillips, 2019)

#211 Post by mfunk9786 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:43 pm

Jack Kubrick wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:36 pm
More prove that artificial intelligence still has a way to go to match humanity intelligence and stupidity.
No comment

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Re: Joker (Todd Phillips, 2019)

#212 Post by Jack Kubrick » Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:43 pm

Cash Flagg wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:00 pm
The real tragedy is that audiences will forever be deprived of the riveting final chapter in the Hangover Quadrilogy "because all the f*cking funny guys are like, ‘F*ck this shit".
It's unbearable that SJW's have ruined the audience appetite of watching jolly convicted rapist Mike Tyson air-drumming to Phil Collins. It's like they hold a grip on culture or something!

ntnon
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Re: Joker (Todd Phillips, 2019)

#213 Post by ntnon » Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:10 pm

domino harvey wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:40 am
Nah, President Pence will already be sworn in by the time this opens
A much-scarier thought than the possibility of Joker-inspired violence..

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Re: Joker (Todd Phillips, 2019)

#214 Post by NWRdr4 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:57 am

Jonathan Rosenbaum posted a short review on his Letterboxd profile.
Jonathan Rosenbaum wrote:Authentically upsetting in its composed assault on the predilections of its audience, this is an original work in spite of its borrowed tropes from Lang & Lorre (M), Leni & Veidt (The Man Who Laughs), and Scorsese (Taxi Driver, The King of Comedy) because of its meditative distance from its ugly themes.

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Re: Joker (Todd Phillips, 2019)

#215 Post by Wowee Zowee » Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:24 pm

I saw some article on IMDb's homepage recently that asked if "Joker" was part of the Scorsese universe of films, as if his filmograhy is akin to the Marvel universe or something like that. It seems like they were really reaching with that one.

Still, if this film gets younger people who have spent this decade watching only comic book films to go back and watch Scorsese movies or 70s cinema in general, well, that would be cool. It wouldn't be that different from my younger years of watching gangster cinema, only to have Scorsese introduce me to the joys of Fellini, Italian neorealism and eventually ... the Criterion Collection! Afterall, the first Criterion I ever purchased was "8 1/2" because I saw it featured in "My Voyage to Italy", sold to me in the gift shop of Francis Ford Coppola's winery!

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Re: Joker (Todd Phillips, 2019)

#216 Post by Luke M » Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:14 am

I saw this last night. It is with a heavy heart that I must confess it is very good.

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Re: Joker (Todd Phillips, 2019)

#217 Post by mfunk9786 » Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:13 pm

Well, that settles it

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Re: Joker (Todd Phillips, 2019)

#218 Post by Orlac » Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:16 pm

NWRdr4 wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:57 am
Jonathan Rosenbaum posted a short review on his Letterboxd profile.
Jonathan Rosenbaum wrote:Authentically upsetting in its composed assault on the predilections of its audience, this is an original work in spite of its borrowed tropes from Lang & Lorre (M), Leni & Veidt (The Man Who Laughs), and Scorsese (Taxi Driver, The King of Comedy) because of its meditative distance from its ugly themes.
So...he liked it?

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Re: Joker (Todd Phillips, 2019)

#219 Post by cdobbs » Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:38 pm

Orlac wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:16 pm
NWRdr4 wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:57 am
Jonathan Rosenbaum posted a short review on his Letterboxd profile.
Jonathan Rosenbaum wrote:Authentically upsetting in its composed assault on the predilections of its audience, this is an original work in spite of its borrowed tropes from Lang & Lorre (M), Leni & Veidt (The Man Who Laughs), and Scorsese (Taxi Driver, The King of Comedy) because of its meditative distance from its ugly themes.
So...he liked it?
So Rosenbaum finds Todd Phillips meditative and thoughtful (apparently) but Tarantino is a MAGA “redneck.” Ok.

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Re: Joker (Todd Phillips, 2019)

#220 Post by The Narrator Returns » Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:26 pm

The Narrator Returns wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:01 am
The script has leaked online and I read it. It's not a final draft (Marc Maron's character doesn't appear in it), but enough material from it is in the trailers that it seems close enough to whatever the finished product may be. It's definitely a shameless Scorsese knock-off, half Taxi Driver and half King of Comedy, but mostly it's just scene after boring scene of shit getting shoveled on this guy until he breaks, with some really confused social commentary occurring in the background. And there won't need to be any reaching to interpret this as the incel movie of the century.
Saw the movie, and mercifully the incel subtext has mostly been excised (though its replacement is still dumb, just not actively misogynistic), but it's unfortunately still boring more than anything. One of Phoenix's more strained performances (I can't wait to see him relax in a Mike Mills movie after seeing him practically burst a blood vessel trying to right this ship), and a cast of great character actors given glorified day-player parts. It doesn't even look all that great, just drab and overly color-corrected.

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Re: Joker (Todd Phillips, 2019)

#221 Post by ford » Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:50 pm

Luke M wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:14 am
I saw this last night. It is with a heavy heart that I must confess it is very good.
Same.

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Re: Joker (Todd Phillips, 2019)

#222 Post by mfunk9786 » Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:15 am

I'm obligated to mention that this is against forum rules etc - I mean, at least try to put an effort in instead of just saying that something is good or bad

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Re: Joker (Todd Phillips, 2019)

#223 Post by Murdoch » Sat Oct 05, 2019 11:39 pm

I'll go against the indescript grain and say I thought this was a chore to sit through. A shallow psychological drama with comic book references thrown in haphazardly to draw a larger crowd. It feels a bit like Philips watched the films referenced by Rosenbaum and put them through a very small filter, simplifying them into an ultraviolent character study devoid of any depth or insight into what it portrays. Yes, it's like Taxi Driver and King of Comedy in that it's about a deranged individual who obsesses over a late night host, but gone is Scorsese's measured portrayal of vigilantism as a purely selfish endeavor. Travis Bickle and Rupert Pupkin aren't expressive voices of a movement, and Scorsese is smart enough not to paint them as anything more than damaged, needy men with mental illness and no means to improve their lives. Yes, it's also like M in that Philips wants you to sympathize with his titular killer. But unlike in M where the killer is acting out a compulsion, here Fleck is simply killing out of revenge.
SpoilerShow
Save a few belligerent drunks at the beginning, Fleck's violence is focused exclusively on unarmed, non-violent people who he sees as having wronged him.
. Not that making Joker sympathetic is wrong, but if you're going to make your ruthless killer that way, at least do something interesting. Here, he's a loner who lives with his mom, gets beat up a few times, then goes off the rails. Phoenix's performance kind of pulls off this transformation, but then its bogged down by
SpoilerShow
the shoe-horned in Thomas Wayne paternity subplot and his mother's psychosis, which makes Fleck angry enough to kill his mother for some reason
Overall I found it just another tedious, self-serious entry in DC's tiresome attempts to reinvigorate its properties following the massive success of the Nolan Batman films. This is not Todd Phillips's emergence as a great dramatic filmmaker, as it shows he's just as lazy at character dramas as he is in his comedy.

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Re: Joker (Todd Phillips, 2019)

#224 Post by therewillbeblus » Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:27 pm

This movie deeply disturbed me, but not in the way I thought it would. First off, this film only works if taken at face value as a intense depiction of mental illness. I don’t believe for one moment that Phillips or Phoenix want us to sympathize with Joker beyond the initial socioeconomic and mental health imbalances but even those sway between sympathy and pity, quickly settling on the latter. His delusions are obvious, from an opening fantasy he has watching De Niro, and it’s so painfully uncomfortable that all subsequent delusions take on the same conditioned vibe, including all non-diegetic music cues which undercut any possible glamorous aspects the songs could service since we have established a view that this is Fleck’s deranged fantasy. This also applies to
SpoilerShow
the Zazie Beetz ‘twist’ which feels so clearly a fantasy from her first smile his way, and yes is contrived and forced but works because we don’t get any offerings from Phillips to align with Phoenix’s Joker on any redeemable or enticing qualities. If they had provided an empathetic pathway, the twist would have worked, but then the movie would itself be problematic in feeding into incel culture, so I’ll take it as is.
It’s worth recognizing that Phillips goes out of his way to address the incel culture and the idea of hiveminded groups emerging from a problematic figure to project their own dissatisfaction and nihilistic rage, and he portrays this movement with as much disgust and contempt as he does the Joker, stripping them of any face or tools for audience alignment. Phillips and Phoenix also wisely poke holes in the one aspect the incels and toxic audiences seem to love about Joker: his confidence in his nihilism.
SpoilerShow
Near the end, on De Niro’s show, Joker expresses his antisocial take on nihilism, declaring that he cares about nothing and is not politically motivated, that he sees all horror as comedy. However, he then begins to become emotional and serious, with Phoenix relinquishing Joker’s own sensitivity regarding feeling slighted by De Niro, before going into a rant about how society has ignored him and that this has fueled his anger. By exposing his hypocrisy, Phillips reveals Joker as a deeply ill man who is so broken he must use all the defense mechanisms at his disposal to provide some rationale framework to his life, and even then fails to convince himself or others of any romantic nature to his madness. Joker becomes robbed of his only endearing trait and by revealing the facade of inauthenticity to this idea in the form of a man, Phillips and Phoenix ironically paint the most authentic picture of what this man would actually look like.
Their film is a film for and about the toxic crowd who take the Tyler Durdens, Alex DeLarges, and Jokers seriously. Joker in this film is the realist, objective version of these nihilistic incels, a portrayal of who they are and the film goes to many lengths to de-glorify any aspects of this type of figure or culture. At a certain point early on, a divide is established between the audience and the Joker and yet we are forced to stay with him in nearly every frame, trapped with this unidentifiable dissolving human who we can’t forge a subjective connection with despite him acting as our protagonist. This is a horror film, for the psychological impact on the viewer of splitting one from the necessary tools of engaging in cinema.
SpoilerShow
Consider a scene where Fleck watches a stand up comic and laughs at only the inappropriate times, the moments with no joke, and fails to laugh with the crowd for the actual punchlines. It’s no coincidence that the jokes are about social interaction, and that Fleck can’t even pick up on the social cues of a crowd to laugh along with them.
This film goes to lengths to separate our comprehension of social laws with his, repeatedly distancing ourselves from the sympathy towards pity, and consistently prompting us to disbar our subjective perspective from Fleck’s. The musical score and sound design add to the unsettling presentation of the titular character by provoking our anxieties during moments post-violence when Phoenix appears relaxed and free, another juxtaposition that shatters our connection to him.

So what is this film trying to say? Phillips makes plenty of references to sociopolitical problems, with equal cynicism on both sides, to make one wonder if he’s interested in making a point beyond using this issue as fuel for the incels’ fire. The social worker character bothered me because no therapist would be so obtuse as to robotically refuse to provide a simple statement of validation before breaking the tough news of the cut programs, and her statement about nobody caring about Fleck was too on-the-nose, even though I see how it serviced the story. If Phillips has a greater political or social point to make here, it’s not clear and frankly the movie would be far worse off to be read this way. As a horror movie that forces the audience to sit with an unrelatable, unlikeable, and unpredictable moral black hole as our only subjective outlet for two hours, this succeeds. As a depiction of untreated mental illness, which absolutely has an unclear link to socioeconomic hardship, this works too because that socioeconomic angle isn’t clarified, but is acknowledged, to match actual research still searching for the chicken and egg causation/effect. As anything else, I’m not sure this does succeed, but I’ll call it a success for those preferred readings. I can’t say I enjoyed the experience, but I don’t believe I was supposed to, and while I have no interest in ever seeing this again that’s a testament to the film’s strengths. Phoenix should have won an Oscar by now, and this is far from his best work, but he’s absolutely captivating here and it would be a far more complex performance in its audience (dis)engagement to win than has been credited by most reactions I’ve read, which makes me want to root for it on principle alone.

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Re: Joker (Todd Phillips, 2019)

#225 Post by How rude! » Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:18 pm

"Phoenix should have won an Oscar by now, and this is far from his best work, but he’s absolutely captivating here and it would be a far more complex performance in its audience (dis)engagement to win than has been credited by most reactions I’ve read, which makes me want to root for it on principle alone."

There is a fair chance there will be a Joker-related mass shooting between now and the Oscars. I wouldn't bet on this performance receiving a nomination.

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