The Neon Demon (Nicolas Winding Refn, 2016)

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Trees
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Re: The Neon Demon (Nicolas Winding Refn, 2016)

#26 Post by Trees » Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:24 pm

Luke M wrote:I enjoyed it. It's a film, the more I reflect on, the more I appreciate. I read one critic call it the most Nicolas Winding Refn-ian film yet. I agree and I don't think that's a knock on the film. Typically when directors are free to indulge the results are at best underwhelming (see PTA post-TWBB and Malick post-New World). But here I'm kinda digging what Refn is trying to do. I think the film works including the somewhat jarring final act. His ambitions here aren't nearly as lofty as the aforementioned directors (yet he still gets the pretentious label thrown at him). The Neon Demon is a simple story with hyper-stylized visuals. To steal the title of one of Kanye's best albums, it's a beautiful dark twisted fantasy.
How would you compare the film to Refn's two most recent films, Drive and Only God Forgives? Those two films, in my opinion, are solid across all three acts, even if the third acts do tend to go off the deep end. Demon kind of crumbles apart in its last 30 minutes or so for me.

I liked the
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necrophilia
scene, but after that, the entire ending of the film, for me, did not work very well.

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Re: The Neon Demon (Nicolas Winding Refn, 2016)

#27 Post by Luke M » Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:13 pm

Trees wrote:
Luke M wrote:I enjoyed it. It's a film, the more I reflect on, the more I appreciate. I read one critic call it the most Nicolas Winding Refn-ian film yet. I agree and I don't think that's a knock on the film. Typically when directors are free to indulge the results are at best underwhelming (see PTA post-TWBB and Malick post-New World). But here I'm kinda digging what Refn is trying to do. I think the film works including the somewhat jarring final act. His ambitions here aren't nearly as lofty as the aforementioned directors (yet he still gets the pretentious label thrown at him). The Neon Demon is a simple story with hyper-stylized visuals. To steal the title of one of Kanye's best albums, it's a beautiful dark twisted fantasy.
How would you compare the film to Refn's two most recent films, Drive and Only God Forgives? Those two films, in my opinion, are solid across all three acts, even if the third acts do tend to go off the deep end. Demon kind of crumbles apart in its last 30 minutes or so for me.

I liked the
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necrophilia
scene, but after that, the entire ending of the film, for me, did not work very well.
I love Drive. I think I ended up seeing it twice during it's opening weekend. I don't think this film shares much except for the 80s neon color palette and LA backdrop. Otherwise the casual viewer might not realize it's the same director.

Only God Forgives feels more akin to this film. The pacing is deliberate, nearly every shot is stunning. But I didn't feel like that film went anywhere we really hadn't seen before, whereas this went to a whole new universe we don't see very often.

I like the last 30 something minutes.
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Sitting there watching it, I refused to believe what was happening. I didn't see any of it coming at all. I wasn't totally sold on it until the very end when the one model picks up the eye ball and swallows it down. It was sort of like, oh he went there. The third act worked for me sort of the same way Heathers worked - once you get over the initial shock hurdle it's fun.
Refn treats third acts much in a similar way Chuck Palahniuk does - everything goes to 11.

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Re: The Neon Demon (Nicolas Winding Refn, 2016)

#28 Post by djproject » Sat Jun 25, 2016 2:20 am

Just saw this last night. I liked it pretty much right away, even with some familiar tropes, both specific to NWR and in general (think A Star Is Born or [perhaps] Star 80 or Mulholland Drive).

As far as NWR goes: only saw Drive, which I also enjoyed. I am curious about Only God Forgives and I believe the "backlash" was more from those who only knew NWR through Drive.

And as I told a fellow cinephile concerning
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comparisons to Black Swan. NWR owes more to Jodorowsky than he does to say Polanski and perhaps Cronenberg.

In general, I would describe this as if Jodorowsky made his own version of those aforementioned films ... maybe a dash of other LA set noirs for that added ... colour =D.

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Re: The Neon Demon (Nicolas Winding Refn, 2016)

#29 Post by mfunk9786 » Sat Jun 25, 2016 3:21 am

This didn't really work for me, primarily because of the moments when Refn decides that he's David Lynch, taking some time out to show us some glowing triangles or one big growing triangle or some character positioned like a triangle - but luckily, Lynch isn't nearly as predictable or pretentious. When Refn embraces his almost Giallo impulses with this film, it works quite well. And it's nothing if not memorable as a whole. Interestingly enough, LQ (who may weigh in further here) liked it much more than I: her quote as we exited the theater was "The way women look at each other is perverse. And it's not something you see in movies every day." I can certainly appreciate that Refn and a pair of female co-writers are aiming to say something deeper than just "the modeling industry is shallow" - but I certainly didn't feel that until she pointed out to me just how many layers she found. Ah, well. I certainly won't mind revisiting this once it hits streaming - there are some visuals that are among the most memorable in cinema in years. It's just a shame about the varying quality of the glue holding them together.

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Re: The Neon Demon (Nicolas Winding Refn, 2016)

#30 Post by mfunk9786 » Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:00 pm

Broad Green seems to have only booked most theaters for a one week engagement for this (or at least, the theaters had an agreement that they could cut the cord if it underperformed), because after playing several theaters in my area this past week, it's gone from all of them starting tomorrow. Yikes.

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Re: The Neon Demon (Nicolas Winding Refn, 2016)

#31 Post by Trees » Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:15 pm

Per-screen average was super low last week. It's bombing in terms of US box office.

djproject, I think you will like Only God Forgives.

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Re: The Neon Demon (Nicolas Winding Refn, 2016)

#32 Post by mfunk9786 » Thu Jun 30, 2016 1:50 pm

Yeah, but most distributors get a 2 week commitment from multiplexes when a film is booked. Looks like Broad Green didn't bother. There's a 24 screen theater near me that's still playing Captain America: Civil War and The Angry Birds Movie next week despite them being phased out in most theaters that has just dropped The Neon Demon wholesale - not a drop to one or two showtimes a day - it's just gone. I can't remember the last time I've seen anything quite like that. Even Green Room got a few weeks in my area and it had a worse opening weekend than The Neon Demon. Will be very interested to see the screen count when the weekend numbers come in. What a historically lousy distribution job.

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Trees
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Re: The Neon Demon (Nicolas Winding Refn, 2016)

#33 Post by Trees » Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:44 pm

Broad Green has really been struggling with nearly all of their projects, unfortunately. But in Broad Green and Amazon's defense, I don't think the word of mouth on DEMON has been good at all.

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Re: The Neon Demon (Nicolas Winding Refn, 2016)

#34 Post by Feiereisel » Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:59 pm

Trees wrote:Broad Green has really been struggling with nearly all of their projects, unfortunately. But in Broad Green and Amazon's defense, I don't think the word of mouth on DEMON has been good at all.
If there's any word-of-mouth to speak of--even aware of the film I hadn't heard much about it; the few reviews I saw were mixed at best. I hopped out to see it because some of the previous posts mentioned it was getting widely dropped over the the holiday weekend and I didn't want to wait for the home video release.

I'm a resolute Driver, and while I wouldn't say I disliked The Neon Demon, I think the only reason I'd recommend it to anybody would be to see how they react to actually viewing the film, which...

As a whole, the movie was a little too remote, lacking the tension between stock-story and self-conscious stylishness that makes Drive such a compelling package. That said, I found the film less frustrating or vapid than a lot of the mainstream critics seemed to. I liked the sheen and gloss, but wasn't particularly grabbed by the story.

But, wow, when Refn is on he's all the way on: the white-room walk-off is a magnificent scene, both credit sequences are stunners, and a lot of the cinematography left me gobsmacked, even though I had no idea what to make of the movie.

It's left me asking myself if I missed something or whether it was there or not to begin with--the corrupted by fame/intoxicated by beauty angle seems a little too obvious, especially given the back half of the film.

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Re: The Neon Demon (Nicolas Winding Refn, 2016)

#35 Post by Magic Hate Ball » Sat Jul 02, 2016 12:02 am

Feiereisel wrote:It's left me asking myself if I missed something or whether it was there or not to begin with--the corrupted by fame/intoxicated by beauty angle seems a little too obvious, especially given the back half of the film.
I've been puzzling over this, because it feels like all Refn has to say is that men hold women to an unnattainable standard, which creates a harmful atmosphere in which women will gladly tear each other apart in competition. Not that I disagree that male gaze is toxic, but it's sort of like making a film about how water is wet. It's like, yeah, duh, and? That and the general blandness of what was (presumably) supposed to be shocking debauchery were kind of a let-down. During the last twenty minutes I kept thinking "this can't be the end, right?", but it was and that killed the movie for me.

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Re: The Neon Demon (Nicolas Winding Refn, 2016)

#36 Post by Trees » Sat Jul 02, 2016 2:08 am

No there there.

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Re: The Neon Demon (Nicolas Winding Refn, 2016)

#37 Post by mfunk9786 » Sat Jul 02, 2016 11:03 am

I don't think that the world of high fashion modeling depicted in the film has a whole hell of a lot to do with the male gaze, actually - it has a lot more to do with female competitiveness - the men in the film aren't particularly sexual beings and certainly aren't as transfixed by Fanning's character as the women, after all. It's sort of like Black Swan in some respects, this is more of a niche performance art than, say, a film about tension over who's going to get the cover of the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue. Obviously there are men who appreciate the hair and makeup and aesthetics of runway and high fashion modeling, but that industry seems to be much less about appealing to men than appealing to other women.

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Re: The Neon Demon (Nicolas Winding Refn, 2016)

#38 Post by Magic Hate Ball » Sat Jul 02, 2016 12:23 pm

It's male gaze-y in the way that the major higher-ups presented are men - the photographer who aggressively violates ethical standards, whoever that guy is who talks about how beauty is the only thing and judges the models when they're strutting - and the women in the film eat each other alive for a chance to be considered worthy by them. I'm also giving Refn the benefit of the doubt that he wouldn't just make a movie about how women are catty bitches. It's possible that he did.

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Re: The Neon Demon (Nicolas Winding Refn, 2016)

#39 Post by domino harvey » Sat Jul 02, 2016 1:07 pm

Why is it preferable for men to be the aggressors?

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Re: The Neon Demon (Nicolas Winding Refn, 2016)

#40 Post by mfunk9786 » Sat Jul 02, 2016 2:40 pm

I think the film as it stands is far more interesting than some sort of male gaze narrative. Fanning's growing satisfaction with herself has little to nothing to do with luring men - up until the end of the film she's a virgin who seems to have no interest in changing that anytime soon unless it can get her further ahead of the women she's surrounded by. It is entirely about the way [some] women see other women, and the competitive jealousy that can inspire.

In what way did the photographer violate ethical standards?

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Re: The Neon Demon (Nicolas Winding Refn, 2016)

#41 Post by Magic Hate Ball » Sat Jul 02, 2016 3:12 pm

mfunk9786 wrote:I think the film as it stands is far more interesting than some sort of male gaze narrative. Fanning's growing satisfaction with herself has little to nothing to do with luring men - up until the end of the film she's a virgin who seems to have no interest in changing that anytime soon unless it can get her further ahead of the women she's surrounded by. It is entirely about the way [some] women see other women, and the competitive jealousy that can inspire.

In what way did the photographer violate ethical standards?
I guess it just felt kind of muddled - I get the self-satisfaction aspect, but they're also in competition to work for prestigious men and generally be "perfect" (to whom?). I don't think the male gaze aspect makes it more interesting but it's so hazy on the topic of self-satisfaction and inter-feminine competition (for what? what standards are being competed for?) that it didn't feel fulfilling.

edit: making her take all her clothes off, turning out the lights, and then rubbing his hands all over her nude body seems just the teensiest bit off. It's a bit date-rapey.
domino harvey wrote:Why is it preferable for men to be the aggressors?
It's not preferable, but it's at least true that male gaze sucks, and that's an ok message, I guess.

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Re: The Neon Demon (Nicolas Winding Refn, 2016)

#42 Post by mfunk9786 » Sat Jul 02, 2016 4:05 pm

I thought the entire scene with the photographer was to present him as cold but professional. It was obviously tense before it played out entirely but it was par for the course for modeling, and it was the correct move for him to request a closed set, too.

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Re: The Neon Demon (Nicolas Winding Refn, 2016)

#43 Post by Magic Hate Ball » Sat Jul 02, 2016 4:17 pm

mfunk9786 wrote:I thought the entire scene with the photographer was to present him as cold but professional. It was obviously tense before it played out entirely but it was par for the course for modeling, and it was the correct move for him to request a closed set, too.
Technically correct but usually you don't surprise your subjects like that.

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Re: The Neon Demon (Nicolas Winding Refn, 2016)

#44 Post by Feiereisel » Sat Jul 02, 2016 5:10 pm

Another way to look at it is that the scene's ambiguity creates tension, which fits with the idea that it's a horror-film. The scene comes early enough in the movie that the interaction between the two characters is surprising because the film still seems to be defining its terms.
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The full-figure shots of Jesse standing against the solid white backdrop emphasize her vulnerability, and the scene plays ambiguously until the photographer returns with the gold paint and it's revealed that his intent is indeed to photograph her. It may be dubiously professional, but the film doesn't present it as an assault.

Maybe one of the other reasons the film seems so symbolically muddled is that film is trying to present too many sides of Jesse--young/virginal/naive-model/narcissistic/exceptional-being/etc. She's so steeped in "significance" that it's seems symbolically aimless. (Some things are projected onto her by other characters, while others are character traits, and while she has an opportunist-to-narcissist arc, so much is thrown into the mix it becomes unclear on the whole.
Whether Refn's ambiguity is a challenge to the viewer or an "Eh, it's for them to figure out," shrug seems to fluctuate throughout the film.

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Re: The Neon Demon (Nicolas Winding Refn, 2016)

#45 Post by R0lf » Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:14 am

mfunk9786 wrote:I think the film as it stands is far more interesting than some sort of male gaze narrative.
I thought the film was a throwback to Jodorowsky and the idea of religious and "primitive" mysticism.
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The club scene and runway shows are presented as rituals. The wildcat imagery repeats itself in the movie as the undercurrent of the savage. Fanning who is born natural ignores that the flipside of this is tribal competition and the re assertion of order within it. This is then played out in ritual cannibalism which is then played out to alchemy/transubstantiation of the devoured host.
The unnatural modernity of culture being underscored by the animal and undercurrent of human nature asserting itself and vague spiritual nature of ourselves. The title NEON DEMON also reflects this!

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Re: The Neon Demon (Nicolas Winding Refn, 2016)

#46 Post by domino harvey » Tue Sep 27, 2016 11:54 pm

This is one of the most juvenile films I have ever had the misfortune of sitting through. Refn’s perspective on the modeling world is ludicrous in the extreme, with the overarching thesis drowned out by the film working at all cylinders to undermine it by exhibiting the same flaws under attack. I was tempted to give Refn credit where it’s due for maintaining his slick visual flair and for knowing how to commission effective scores for his work. But you know what? I am just so over empty aesthetic wanking like this. The film thinks it’s daring with its bouts of necrophilia and cannibalism, but the sterile style and “prettiness” of it all is a cheat: Refn has no actual criticisms about beauty or perceptions of beauty. Refn revels in these things. And good for him, because beauty is one of the great things about film, and modeling, and life. So I don’t have a problem with that out of hand. I do however object to the utterly infantile lip service the film pays while glorifying the same sins. The film doesn’t have the courage of its convictions, because it has no convictions. And it isn’t shocking, because the gore and violence and negativity are all so phony and desperate and at-odds with the film itself that Refn just holds it to the side with one hand while waving us by with the other. The last twenty minutes don’t upend audience expectations, they show that Refn is so inept at crafting a narrative that he thinks he can do anything so long as dat carpet is the right shade of blue and dat eyeball looks just so. I gave this film about as much latitude as is humanly possible as it progressed, but the film started nowhere and ended up behind itself. By the end I was just irate at how flippantly Refn had stolen my time, energy, and experience to treat his FanningWave YouTube video collage with any semblance of respect. A movie this isolated and empty isn’t superior, it’s inferior— to anything else. I would have been better off trying to engage with Beverly Hills Chihuahua 2. I’m just so tired of style-dependent masturbation masquerading as movies, and equally tired of Refn wasting his obvious talents just because there’s still a coterie of fawners willing to tell him he’s done it again. He sure has.

As a side note, a truly tasteless film about another “enviable” California lifestyle was released a few years ago, and it worked because its director knew what he was doing and didn’t hedge his bets like Refn. David Cronenberg’s Maps to the Stars resembles the reality of Hollywood as much as this film does the reality of modeling, but Cronenberg had no auspices of artifice in his attacks, and didn’t hide behind style to mount his charges. The result was a crude, ugly, and effective portrait of the worst imagined sins of an industry millions still want to be a part of. I can’t remember a single interesting visual moment of that film, and I don’t care.

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Re: The Neon Demon (Nicolas Winding Refn, 2016)

#47 Post by Bumstead » Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:04 am

domino harvey wrote:David Cronenberg’s Maps to the Stars resembles the reality of Hollywood as much as this film does the reality of modeling, but Cronenberg had no auspices of artifice in his attacks, and didn’t hide behind style to mount his charges. The result was a crude, ugly, and effective portrait of the worst imagined sins of an industry millions still want to be a part of. I can’t remember a single interesting visual moment of that film, and I don’t care.
Great comparison—thank you. I had initially resented the 'lack of style' in MAP TO THE STARS (the great Peter Suschitzky's cinematography is shockingly drab), but have come to appreciate Cronenberg's intention. By stripping away the artifice and glamour, he presented a reality heightened only character actions. There's a reason why it's the only film of his shot in the States.

Re. THE NEON DEMON, to put to rest any lingering doubts in my mind, I watched it again with Refn's commentary. Ouch.

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Re: The Neon Demon (Nicolas Winding Refn, 2016)

#48 Post by mfunk9786 » Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:43 am

LQ and I watched this again just the other day, and while I remain sort of mixed, she continues to be the forum's most staunch (but silent!) defender. Hopefully Domino's review, in part, rustles her out of hibernation, because she has really interesting things to say about this one.

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Re: The Neon Demon (Nicolas Winding Refn, 2016)

#49 Post by djproject » Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:56 am

domino harvey wrote:This is one of the most juvenile films I have ever had the misfortune of sitting through. Refn’s perspective on the modeling world is ludicrous in the extreme, with the overarching thesis drowned out by the film working at all cylinders to undermine it by exhibiting the same flaws under attack. I was tempted to give Refn credit where it’s due for maintaining his slick visual flair and for knowing how to commission effective scores for his work. But you know what? I am just so over empty aesthetic wanking like this. The film thinks it’s daring with its bouts of necrophilia and cannibalism, but the sterile style and “prettiness” of it all is a cheat: Refn has no actual criticisms about beauty or perceptions of beauty. Refn revels in these things. And good for him, because beauty is one of the great things about film, and modeling, and life. So I don’t have a problem with that out of hand. I do however object to the utterly infantile lip service the film pays while glorifying the same sins. The film doesn’t have the courage of its convictions, because it has no convictions. And it isn’t shocking, because the gore and violence and negativity are all so phony and desperate and at-odds with the film itself that Refn just holds it to the side with one hand while waving us by with the other. The last twenty minutes don’t upend audience expectations, they show that Refn is so inept at crafting a narrative that he thinks he can do anything so long as dat carpet is the right shade of blue and dat eyeball looks just so. I gave this film about as much latitude as is humanly possible as it progressed, but the film started nowhere and ended up behind itself. By the end I was just irate at how flippantly Refn had stolen my time, energy, and experience to treat his FanningWave YouTube video collage with any semblance of respect. A movie this isolated and empty isn’t superior, it’s inferior— to anything else. I would have been better off trying to engage with Beverly Hills Chihuahua 2. I’m just so tired of style-dependent masturbation masquerading as movies, and equally tired of Refn wasting his obvious talents just because there’s still a coterie of fawners willing to tell him he’s done it again. He sure has.
I just noticed: if I made some adjustments and tweaks to what you just said here, this would express how I think/feel about Heaven's Gate =]

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Re: The Neon Demon (Nicolas Winding Refn, 2016)

#50 Post by R0lf » Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:55 am

domino harvey wrote:As a side note, a truly tasteless film about another “enviable” California lifestyle was released a few years ago, and it worked because its director knew what he was doing and didn’t hedge his bets like Refn. David Cronenberg’s Maps to the Stars resembles the reality of Hollywood as much as this film does the reality of modeling, but Cronenberg had no auspices of artifice in his attacks, and didn’t hide behind style to mount his charges. The result was a crude, ugly, and effective portrait of the worst imagined sins of an industry millions still want to be a part of. I can’t remember a single interesting visual moment of that film, and I don’t care.
Yes but you're also ignoring that the the choices made on MAPS TO THE STARS are a direct counter response by Cronenberg to his previous movie COSMOPOLIS which indulged in all the choices you're criticising Refn for.

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