Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)

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Lemmy Caution
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Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)

#1 Post by Lemmy Caution » Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:22 pm

Has anyone seen Whiplash? JK Simmons plays a top music instructor who harshly teaches an apprentice drummer played by Miles Teller. Directed by Damien Chazelle, his follow-up to his debut Guy and Madeline on a Park Bench. Has been doing the festival circuit, and was recently screened for the NYFF. It's set to open Oct. 10. One friend saw it and raved about it. Sounds promising ...
Last edited by Lemmy Caution on Sun Oct 26, 2014 12:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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domino harvey
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Re: Whiplash

#2 Post by domino harvey » Wed Oct 08, 2014 5:09 pm

Lemmy Caution wrote:Has anyone seen Whiplash? JK Simmons plays a drummer who harshly teaches an apprentice played by Miles Teller. Directed by Damien Chazelle, his follow-up to his debut Guy and Madeline on a Park Bench. Has been doing the festival circuit, and was recently screened for the NYFF. It's set to open Oct. 10. One friend saw it and raved about it. Sounds promising ...
I have not seen it but Simmons is widely expected to win an Oscar for it, which even if the movie sucks I support because that guy is like Sam Rockwell and just good in anything

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Jeff
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Re: Whiplash

#3 Post by Jeff » Sun Oct 26, 2014 12:36 am

Lemmy Caution wrote:Has anyone seen Whiplash? JK Simmons plays a drummer who harshly teaches an apprentice played by Miles Teller. Directed by Damien Chazelle, his follow-up to his debut Guy and Madeline on a Park Bench. Has been doing the festival circuit, and was recently screened for the NYFF. It's set to open Oct. 10. One friend saw it and raved about it. Sounds promising ...
Simmons is predictably great in a scenery devouring performance. He's actually playing a jazz pianist turned conductor and instructor at a Juilliard surrogate. Miles Teller is really good too, especially when he's intensely squinting while frantically drumming and bleeding all over his drum kit. Seriously. I liked the way the film was lit and there were some cool montages. Chazelle is a talented director. I was less enamored with his script though. The girlfriend our hero doesn't have time for and a useless Paul Reiser dad are not developed at all. I don't know anything about jazz drumming. Or other forms of jazz. Or other forms of drumming. This didn't ring true as a depiction of it to me though. If this is what being an elite musician is like, I can't imagine why such a life would appeal to anyone. The film really falls apart in its absurd finale. A series of screenwriting cliches, contrivances, and implausibilities ensues in route to and on the stage of The Big Music Competition that is bound to host the climax of such a film. Ultimately, Whiplash is just a visual interpretation of the joke about how you get to Carnegie Hall.

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Lemmy Caution
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Re: The Films of 2014

#4 Post by Lemmy Caution » Sun Oct 26, 2014 1:08 am

Thanks for that. Sounds interesting.
I edited my earlier post for accuracy.
I have a friend who is a jazz drummer and has interviewed and played with some legendary jazz drummers, so I'll be interested to hear what he thinks of that aspect of the film.
Last edited by Lemmy Caution on Sun Oct 26, 2014 2:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)

#5 Post by knives » Sun Oct 26, 2014 1:39 am

It should be noted, whether the film is accurate or not, Chazelle is a trained musician much like the Teller character.

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Re: Whiplash

#6 Post by swo17 » Sun Oct 26, 2014 2:11 am

Jeff wrote:I don't know anything about jazz drumming. Or other forms of jazz. Or other forms of drumming.
I played drums/percussion in band all through middle school when I lived in Oklahoma. I'm very surprised to learn that this was not a shared experience.

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Jeff
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Re: Whiplash

#7 Post by Jeff » Sun Oct 26, 2014 2:27 am

swo17 wrote:I played drums/percussion in band all through middle school when I lived in Oklahoma. I'm very surprised to learn that this was not a shared experience.
My family left Oklahoma after my sixth grade year. I'm sure that if I had stuck around long enough I would have learned the way of the drum.

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Re: Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)

#8 Post by Shrew » Thu Nov 13, 2014 3:44 am

I enjoyed this a lot--plenty of style from Chazelle and the two central performances are great. Chazelle's experience with music shines through in the way films and edits the performances. As Jeff says, the girlfriend and dad don't have much to do, but I actually think that's a strength. Normally films about the struggle between artistic greatness and a normal life involve a clear arc from talented naif to hardened loner (or dead body), but the Andrew character starts off with a clear ambition and dedication to be the best. Paring back the role of his family and loved ones better reflects his single-minded focus that amps up quickly once he get his shot.

As to accuracy, I played in jazz bands through college but as a casual hobby (my experience was much more like the friendly laid-back vibe of the band Andrew starts in). I've met plenty of hard-ass teachers and directors though, and the high-tension football locker room atmosphere Simmons creates isn't far off. A few things do feel off to me: 1) The lack of collaboration among the bands (and the conclusion goes so far to suggest that Andrew has never rehearsed even once with these musicians when he steps on stage, which is nuts) and 2) the drummer and bass player usually have more control over the tempo of a song than the conductor does (in that regard, the "surprise" song should have been a trainwreck for the whole band, not just Andrew).

As overwrought as the big finale is (and as many plot holes it jumps over) I did enjoy the hell out of it. It helps that Andrew finally figures out issue 2 above.

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Re: Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)

#9 Post by domino harvey » Sun Nov 23, 2014 1:29 am

This is a great film, one of my favorites of the year so far, and what I admire most about it is its streamlined clarity in how its narrative unfolds with as little adornment as possible. The decried girlfriend and father are necessary accompaniments to the overall misery of the film leading up to the final, miraculous realization of innate, unearthly, one-of-a-kind talent, but otherwise this is just throwing the viewer into this world without apology or a CFU. Like JK Simmons' approach, take or leave it. This is one of the tensest films I've ever seen-- I feel like I've given myself a month's worth of TMJ issues from clinching my teeth through all of the assorted rounds of "Not my tempo"s and the various stop-starts and the ever looming monstrosity of Simmons. If Simmons doesn't win the Oscar, something's gone wrong with the system, because this is every great, scene-stealing Simmons performance you've ever seen pushed to its limits, and the uncertainty if he's a villain or a mentor carries through unresolved for the film. Some of his lines hit humorous notes, but mostly the vitriol makes him a confidence-shattering hand of God, ready to dispense with any mere mortal who crosses his path. And unlike the earlier posters in this thread, I found the ending perfect, a clever twist transitioning into an expected, hoped-for materialization of genius. When the film ended with a smash cut to the credits without any applause, my audience stepped up. And rightly so.

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Re: Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)

#10 Post by Black Hat » Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:21 pm

The year's best by a good margin.

Whiplash gave you not an objective truth but a subjective one — worth. As masterful as Chazelle's direction was and as much as there aren't enough superlatives for the performances, what made the film coarse through your veins was its editing. The frenetic close up to close ups made you feel the desperation of our two protagonists. One's need to bring out the best, the other's obsession to be the best. Cut to the process of creation, cut to the fruits of labor whether in triumph or defeat. Blood spattered here, an intimate foot tap there, the banality of seemingly frivolous popcorn all served to show what it is to sacrifice. What it is to push thru an endless array of lashes when your other choice is to compose, like the rest of us do, emotional tranquilizers wrapped in the covers of security. All throughout the ride you're not even thinking about any of this because what you care about the most is the music, your feet stomp, your head nods, shoulders twitching — you don't care about anything that's going on just give me some more of that. Then when the music stops, you're left with the suddenness of nothing — without someone else's sacrifice to enjoy — leaving you behind to ponder are you rushing or are you dragging?


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Re: Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)

#12 Post by DarkImbecile » Tue Jan 20, 2015 3:19 pm

I am extremely happy Whiplash snagged that eighth best picture nomination, both because it very much deserves it and because that was the impetus for it sneaking back into theaters in my home city, where I was finally able to catch it last night (I just moved to an actual city from a small town in the South 2.5 hours from the nearest decent movie theater).

Damien Chazelle's film instantly shot up to the top of my 2014 list and near the top of my 2010s list; honestly, the exhilaration and excitement I felt walking out of the theater remind me why I love film, and why I keep chasing exactly that kind of high from the movies that knock me over with the force of the accumulated talent and artistry onscreen.* I don't know the first thing about the intricacies of creating music (and maybe given some of the above reactions, that helps), but I like to think I can recognize good filmmaking when it hits me in the face (repeatedly, in time).

I don't have much to add to the general accolades the film has already received here and elsewhere for the twin volcanoes of Simmons' and Teller's performances and Chazelle's spare, powerful direction and the film's masterful editing, but a couple of smaller notes I loved:
SpoilerShow
1. The very first thing Teller does is play over Simmons before he's ready, which bookends wonderfully with the ending (which I found sublime for the same reasons Dom described).
2. Reiser does an excellent job in very little screen time of representing both the happy mediocrity Teller is desperate to surpass and the concerned, protective, loving father on whom he relies.
3. Chazelle goes out of his way to avoid passing a clear, black-and-white judgement on either character; I've seen some reactions to the film decrying its supposed blanket approval of Simmon's sadism, which... <sigh>.


*Actually, between this film and the screening I caught a few weeks ago of 2001 in its original aspect ratio (the first time I'd ever seen it in a theater), I've had two of the better cinema-going experiences of my life in the last month.

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Re: Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)

#13 Post by mfunk9786 » Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:55 pm

What a fantastic movie - of a piece with 2010's best film, Black Swan, in that they both stand out to me as being about how all the mathematical precision and tireless, life-swallowing fear of failure in the world can't add up to anything near real passion and joy one finds in their art. When he's held to the highest standard - the standard he thought he both wanted and deserved, Andrew's enjoyment and ambition turns into a job that he's not only terrified of, but that he hates. The fact that Whiplash is wise enough to know that something is missing when someone is practicing until they're bloody because they're motivated by hubris and by terror of making mistakes, that they're just going to make more (and worse) mistakes, is what makes it such a wonderful parable.

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Re: Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)

#14 Post by wattsup32 » Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:56 am

mfunk9786 wrote:What a fantastic movie - of a piece with 2010's best film, Black Swan, in that they both stand out to me as being about how all the mathematical precision and tireless, life-swallowing fear of failure in the world can't add up to anything near real passion and joy one finds in their art. When he's held to the highest standard - the standard he thought he both wanted and deserved, Andrew's enjoyment and ambition turns into a job that he's not only terrified of, but that he hates. The fact that Whiplash is wise enough to know that something is missing when someone is practicing until they're bloody because they're motivated by hubris and by terror of making mistakes, that they're just going to make more (and worse) mistakes, is what makes it such a wonderful parable.
What do you make of the final performance viewed through that parable?

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Re: Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)

#15 Post by LQ » Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:38 am

Whiplash - and Black Swan - both implicitly acknowledge that devoting your life obsessively to perfecting your art is not, uh, perhaps the best idea psychologically speaking, but what I took away from both movies is that only when an artist cracks into the irrational realm in the pursuit of perfection will the results be transcendent. I don't think Andrew would have ever pulled off that performance had he not put himself through absolute hell to get there.

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Re: Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)

#16 Post by mfunk9786 » Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:39 am

I see the final performance as the first time Andrew played with true emotion in a long time, because he'd let the spell of being terrified of failure break itself. I'm not trying to say that practice doesn't make perfect, I'm trying to say that practice only makes perfect if it's for the right reasons, and if you've got something else to bring to the equation.

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Re: Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)

#17 Post by DarkImbecile » Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:41 am

Interesting... I didn't see Neiman's story as one about overcoming a fear of failure. Fletcher and Neiman struck me as more similar than oppositional, two hubristic men focused on greatness, pushing harder than the bounds of sanity would seem to allow (the difference being that Neiman is mostly pushing himself while Fletcher pushes others, with no small dose of sadism). As much as Fletcher gets/does wrong, I think the movie shows that he's right about at least one thing: those truly capable of greatness won't stop striving for it even in the face of enormous obstacles. Of course, whether they need a special someone in their lives to constantly bury them with ever more brutal obstacles to get them there is another question entirely...

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Re: Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)

#18 Post by mfunk9786 » Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:34 pm

I think there's something to the fact that Andrew shows up so early to his first practice, completely terrified that he slept in, and everyone else filters in very shortly before 9, followed by Fletcher at precisely 9 AM. These are people who've learned to take what they do seriously, but not to psych themselves out to the point that it's all they ever think about, and to the point that it's something that consumes them with worry to the point of losing things, leaving things behind, making technical errors, etc. Andrew's mistakes, in my eyes, come from not being ready for the responsibility that comes with doing something extremely well, despite having all the talent necessary, and trying to overcompensate for that by shutting himself away from everything but drumming. There are some tremendous musicians, artists, etc that you know, have girlfriends and go to the movies and whatever else, without having to sacrifice their very serious, straightforward, passionate bond with their craft.

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Re: Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)

#19 Post by DarkImbecile » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:02 pm

mfunk9786 wrote:I think there's something to the fact that Andrew shows up so early to his first practice, completely terrified that he slept in, and everyone else filters in very shortly before 9, followed by Fletcher at precisely 9 AM. These are people who've learned to take what they do seriously, but not to psych themselves out to the point that it's all they ever think about, and to the point that it's something that consumes them with worry to the point of losing things, leaving things behind, making technical errors, etc.
One, I'm fairly certain Fletcher orders Neiman to be there promptly at 6AM. Two, I may have misinterpreted this, but it seemed that most if not all of those other students were easily as terrified and psyched out by Fletcher, failure, etc. as Neiman was, if not more so, hence the
SpoilerShow
students who transfer to med school, drop out, commit suicide, etc.


mfunk9786 wrote:There are some tremendous musicians, artists, etc that you know, have girlfriends and go to the movies and whatever else, without having to sacrifice their very serious, straightforward, passionate bond with their craft.
No doubt; one of the elements I enjoyed about the film was that Neiman was by no means a blameless innocent being abused by a lunatic. I think I'm just identifying his flaws as based more in a particular kind of immature arrogance and less in fear.

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Re: Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)

#20 Post by mfunk9786 » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:26 pm

I might have missed that little detail, my apologies. More mind games, I suppose, but a mind game that had that same general lesson to teach. And you're right, outside of Andrew (who came inches away from completely losing it and going away from jazz drumming forever), there are other examples given of students who could not hack it. But there were others who knew exactly what was expected of them, and managed to show up for practice and in some cases even goof around without shivering in their boots.

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Re: Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)

#21 Post by hearthesilence » Sat Jan 31, 2015 1:52 am

Wasn't aware of this until after the fact, but any Frank Zappa fans see Whiplash? Almost wish someone on-screen made a crack about playing "Caravan" with a drum solo.

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Re: Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)

#22 Post by Kirkinson » Mon Feb 16, 2015 5:45 am

Drummer & educator Peter Erskine weighs in:
I've played under the baton of stern and demanding conductors, as well as the critical ears of some pretty tough bandleaders. I've always experienced equal amounts of praise and criticism from the toughest of them. A conductor or bandleader will only get good results if he or she shows as much love or enthusiasm as the discipline or toughness they dole out. Being a jerk is, ultimately, self-defeating in music education: for one thing, the band will not respond well; secondly, such bandleaders are anathema to the other educators who ultimately wind up acting as judges in competitive music festivals -- such bands will never win (the judges will see to that).
Be sure to scroll down to the comments section where Erskine posts his responses that didn't make it into the article:
Jazz people might seem touchy, but we KNOW the sacrifice and amount of real hard work and thought that goes into this music. It’s not just learning how to play a beat ultra-fast. That’s for morons. The art of jazz drumming is wonderfully complex and subtle and swinging and architectural and geometric and fucking fantastic: I’m sorry, the film makes it look like some Captain Ahab shit… it totally misses the point.
Do you think there is any merit to that sort of intensity when teaching?
What intensity? Slapping a student? No. Calling someone a racist, sexist or homophobic name? Nope. Throwing a perfectly good tom-tom against the wall? Anyone who does that needs professional medical help, in my opinion. Now … intensity in terms of demanding the best of a player? Yes. Providing inspiration to an aspiring musician? Yes. Being HONEST with a musician? Yes. But flogging a horse — or a student – is for dolts or sadists, not educators or bandleaders or conductors.

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Re: Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)

#23 Post by Napoleon » Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:30 pm

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Fletcher isn't a sadist for the sake of it. He knows instantly that Andrew has extraordinary talent. What he is constantly doing is testing whether Andrew has it within him to unleash that talent and to unleash it without compromise.

The whole speed drumming charade isn't to find out if Andrew can do it. Its to see whether he can go further than what is reasonable.

Fletcher isn't interested in the band or winning tournaments. He is not and never was interested in Andrew as merely a drummer for the band. His only motivation is to uncover a Charlie Parker level talent. The rest of his band and the kid who killed himself are collateral. Its an extremely harsh modus operandi but in Fletchers mind one Charlie Parker is a price worth anything.

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Re: Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)

#24 Post by hearthesilence » Mon Feb 16, 2015 5:16 pm

I'm still baffled how both Clint Eastwood's BIRD and this film have, in different ways, distorted and inflated that story about Charlie Parker and Jo Jones. Jones didn't come close to physically hurting Bird and the gesture of tossing a cymbal on to the floor was done as a joke. And it didn't haunt Bird for the rest of his life either.

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Re: Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)

#25 Post by FrauBlucher » Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:08 pm

There is nothing like changing the incidentals of an event as to create a dramatic history.

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