Hacksaw Ridge (Mel Gibson, 2016)

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J Adams
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Re: Hacksaw Ridge (Mel Gibson, 2016)

#51 Post by J Adams » Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:06 am

Dear lord someone is actually recommending watching Human Condition.

It may be better to view Hacksaw Ridge as something other than an attempt to re-litigate WWII. All sides did terrible things. I think Mel had something else in mind in deciding to make this picture. It is set in WWII but has an underlying philosophy that transcends the period. Embrace it or not, I respect either approach.

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knives
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Re: Hacksaw Ridge (Mel Gibson, 2016)

#52 Post by knives » Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:07 am

What's wrong with Human Condition? Even if you don't personally like it it is considered one of the most significant Japanese films ever and probably the definitive one with regards to Japan and the war.

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solaris72
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Re: Hacksaw Ridge (Mel Gibson, 2016)

#53 Post by solaris72 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:18 am

J Adams wrote:It may be better to view Hacksaw Ridge as something other than an attempt to re-litigate WWII.
Who in this thread has described it as such?

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Altair
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Re: Hacksaw Ridge (Mel Gibson, 2016)

#54 Post by Altair » Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:18 am

J Adams wrote:All sides did terrible things.
That's a pretty large false equivalency; not that the Allies didn't do some terrible things during WWII, but the idea that that makes them moral equivalents to the Axis powers is obnoxious to say the least.

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aox
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Re: Hacksaw Ridge (Mel Gibson, 2016)

#55 Post by aox » Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:22 pm

J Adams wrote:Dear lord someone is actually recommending watching Human Condition.
Yes, it's brilliant.

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gcgiles1dollarbin
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Re: Hacksaw Ridge (Mel Gibson, 2016)

#56 Post by gcgiles1dollarbin » Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:03 pm

It is also particularly germane to this discussion of Hacksaw Ridge, because it, too, focuses on a protagonist who professes to be a pacifist.

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movielocke
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Hacksaw Ridge (Mel Gibson, 2016)

#57 Post by movielocke » Wed May 10, 2017 7:19 pm

I kind of liked this but I am baffled that doss' pacifist beliefs are not really given any exposition other than hitting his brother with a brick, and a flashback to his father. Instead the exposition focuses on his romance, ok, fine, but Garfield is quite bad at seeming sincere and mainly came off as creepy in these scenes (the grotesque romantic score cues for this exposition didn't help). The rest of his performance is good, but then it was striking how little he looked like the actual Doss in the end credits, half the guys in his unit looked more like doss than garfield and his coif of super-hair.

The direction and execution of the war scenes is remarkable, especially for the budget, though the attitude underlying it (and most of the film ) is a very nineties throwback, not terribly surprising as I bet the project was in development since Forrest Gump came out.

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Mr Sausage
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Re: Hacksaw Ridge (Mel Gibson, 2016)

#58 Post by Mr Sausage » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:11 pm

Finally got around to seeing it. Regarding its portrayal of the Japanese, they are persistently abstracted into an elemental and/or supernatural force, either as a overwhelming tide ('insects' came to mind when they were poring out of their tunnels and engulfing the battlefield, the only sustained shot of them by that point) or ghosts that flit in and off the screen accompanied by a sudden yell. The editing keeps them barely on the screen, and the cinematography keeps them mostly in long and medium shots. The only close up before the last half hour is a screaming face thrust into the frame as part of Doss' nightmare. Aside from the seppuku scene announcing the fall of the ridge and Doss' helping that one wounded Japanese soldier, the Japanese army is barely represented. They hardly even speak--just a few words shouted in the distance in a few scenes. This isn't helped by the dialogue indicating that the Japanese are pretty much animals, the dreaded hush in which they're spoken of before the soldiers climb the ridge, and the fog-bound, otherworldly atmosphere right before the fighting starts, so that when the Japanese do materialize, it's as tho' they were ghosts. I don't doubt that in many way this was indeed what it was like to fight the Japanese on Hacksaw Ridge; it is hard in the midst of battle to see the other side as anything but some barely-registered destructive force. But it is striking, even for a modern war film, just how little the Japanese occupy the screen here. I can't say if it's racist, but it leaves a definite unpleasant and uncomfortable feeling.

Putting that aside, the rest of the movie is alright. It's an earnest melodrama that Gibson handles clumsily, always over-signaling anything important with slow motion and loud music cues. Doss' character is explored mostly in short hand; one gets the sense that how Doss' arrived at his convictions isn't just unimportant, but would in fact reduce the spiritual quality of the convictions. Doss' convictions are not ideas as we would understand them so much as the substance of his soul, that is, the presence of God's grace and goodness, often rejected but now finally lived up to. This is a classic Christian story of the tempting of the godly, and the vindication of those who resist the jeers and pressures of their fellows to follow God's word. Once Doss' is vindicated, all see him as holy and insist they cannot fight until he prays for them. Hence Doss never works his way towards any ideas; he just has epiphanies and follows their revelations simply and without question.

The most baffling scene in the movie comes when Doss' confronts his father in the cemetery after having just enlisted. Doss' father calls his sons' character unsuited for combat because combat requires snap judgements and impulse, where Doss' is always careful and considered in any action. Except Doss spends the movie, before and after, making impulsive judgements and following them in all simplicity. He sees a pretty girl in the infirmary, is immediately smitten, decides on the spot to just walk up and talk with her, and the very next scene declares he is off to marry her. Their first kiss comes on a random impulse. His enlistment just happens. He dives into his war-time duties immediately. His decision to stay behind on the ridge is made in an instant. Doss just does things. The movie encourages this by eliding all those moments when he supposedly was thinking things out (he gives a speech about thinking long and hard about enlisting, but we aren't shown it; and his revelation about guns is shown only in retrospect, long after the reason has ceased to matter, and amounts to the idea popping into his head fully formed). Doss is basically natural man: uncomplicated, guileless, entirely confident in his identity and beliefs, and without hesitation when pursuing right action. Anyone looking for a character study here will be disappointed. Doss in this film is not a character; he is an emblem of certain religious and social ideas. He is not meant to develop and change, to reveal through dramatic action the workings of human character either in private or public. He is only meant to live up to something already set for him, in this case a collection of ideas. The only drama in his character lies in whether or not he is successful in living up to it. In that case he is only an archetype, and this film is not really about him as a person.

If you're looking for a good action film, you won't be disappointed by the movie because Gibson has filmed its battles with such care, passion, and energy that they are exciting to watch indeed. It's old-fashioned, pre-Saving Private Ryan war action that is, as far as I can tell, meant to be enjoyed without complication.

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knives
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Re: Hacksaw Ridge (Mel Gibson, 2016)

#59 Post by knives » Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:53 pm

My opinion seems to be pretty close to Sausage's for this comedy. This was better than my bottom of the barrel expectations, but I suppose that just takes away the pleasure of mocking Gibson. The film is too quick paced to really allow any of its vignettes to settle in. The obvious SGT. York comparisons only hurt it more since it just doesn't have the ability to balance its pro-war sentiment with it's pro-pacifist one. Instead we get a fake looking, corny, unexamined nature of the whole affair which feels weird because of how autobiographical (particularly in the childhood segment) the film seems. It's makes me almost think Gibson himself was scared of what a real examination of such a situation would reveal so instead we get Jesus Gump punching walls. It's also incredible how little care for veracity Gibson has here. When it shows the entire crew from the barracks (including DI) at the ridge I could help but laugh as it seems Gibson's only familiarity with the army is through Stripes. Honestly I think I laughed more at the antics here which has such a cartoon feeling through the extremity of the violence. The film is almost worth seeing for how fantastic its view of reality is.

With that said as such a big, dumb film it's fairly enjoyable. More than many of the films nominated in its year (I'd even argue it is more engaging than the actual winner even though Moonlight has the advantage of being a more interesting a subject for me). Politically, I suppose ironically, the film is absolutely disgusting for the glee with which it employs violence and exercises machismo yet somehow that works. When taken as just a decently made (I was going to say well, but the CGI here is awful) piece of lurid, trash entertainment it's fun enough. It probably would work better if all the actors brought the dedicated weirdness that Hugo Weaving does, but the blandly pleasing performance of everyone not Vince Vaughn as the least believable imitation of R Lee Ermey ever makes for a blandly pleasing thing. In short this is about the dumbest film that could be made on this subject (even dumber than Jolie's), but it's fun which unfortunately in a bad year makes it better than the low average.

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Big Ben
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Re: Hacksaw Ridge (Mel Gibson, 2016)

#60 Post by Big Ben » Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:20 pm

In an interview Gibson did with Stephen Colbert (from what I recall) Gibson took the religious concept very seriously. Here is a man who actively, actively believes angels and demons are fighting right now (I'm not joking). This bleeds into the film (obviously) with the Japanese being portrayed (As one reviewer put it) as shadows. The Japanese are boogeymen. There to be shot at and be then shoot back. They contain all the characterization of well, demons. While it would be a ridiculous demand to make Gibson make every Japanese soldier three dimensional character I don't think the film would have suffered from deeper characterization of say a few commanding officers? Come to think of it are there even any scenes with any real focus at all framing wise of the Japanese? Aside from the seppuku scene? I honestly don't remember anything other than that. I'm more than certain (And I'm hoping) that I'm wrong.

I feel Doss' story deserved a director who was willing to treat the Japanese the way he saw them. As an oppositional force but still human. And that's what I confess really frustrates me about the film. It was a remarkable story was practically begging to be told. But it's handled so clumsily I confess I'm having problems finding much to like about it other than the well choreographed battle scenes.

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knives
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Re: Hacksaw Ridge (Mel Gibson, 2016)

#61 Post by knives » Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:27 pm

Honestly the film is so dumb I don't mind the portrayal of the Japanese so much. Even the lead isn't all that fully developed as a person and his beliefs are the reason for being of the film. My understanding is that there is a documentary (where the clips at the end are taken from) which handles this subject more maturely, but like I said just watch SGT. York if you don't mind less religious stuff and want a good movie.

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carmilla mircalla
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Re: Hacksaw Ridge (Mel Gibson, 2016)

#62 Post by carmilla mircalla » Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:25 pm

knives wrote:Jesus Gump punching walls
Fucking hilarious, man.

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knives
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Re: Hacksaw Ridge (Mel Gibson, 2016)

#63 Post by knives » Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:36 pm

Well you shouldn't judge a film before seeing it, though I'll shoot that advice in the foot by admitting that isn't even in the ten most ridiculous events of the last hour.

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Big Ben
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Re: Hacksaw Ridge (Mel Gibson, 2016)

#64 Post by Big Ben » Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:47 pm

Here's the real kicker though. Gibson actually removed at least one scene that actually happened because he didn't think the audience would believe it. In actuality a sniper broke Doss' arm. This is not found in the the film at all. I'll let everyone here decide what to make of that. Personally this makes the film look worse in my opinion because it's evidence that Gibson was well aware of verisimilitude.

Photo proof for those curious:

Image

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knives
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Re: Hacksaw Ridge (Mel Gibson, 2016)

#65 Post by knives » Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:55 pm

Didn't also get a load of shrapnel in the leg while standing on a grenade blocking its explosion? This seems like one of those cases where the real events seem more compelling than the movie.

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Big Ben
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Re: Hacksaw Ridge (Mel Gibson, 2016)

#66 Post by Big Ben » Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:06 pm

A quick search reveals Doss had seventeen pieces of shrapnel inside of him. I don't think I can really to what you've said knives. Gibson managed to take a real story and downgrade it making it less spectacular than it really was. That's a remarkable achievement in my mind.

And because I'm a terrible human being here's what Kirk Cameron (Yes that one) had to say about it via Facebook:

"Wow! An amazing true story of bravery, sacrifice, and love in a very dangerous and difficult environment. Hacksaw Ridge is a very inspiring movie, is beautifully made (and takes some courage to watch), and packs a spectacular message of faith, virtue and freedom. God bless our men and women in uniform!" - Kirk Cameron

So yes, the film has it's fans.

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Mr Sausage
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Re: Hacksaw Ridge (Mel Gibson, 2016)

#67 Post by Mr Sausage » Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:11 pm

Big Ben wrote: Come to think of it are there even any scenes with any real focus at all framing wise of the Japanese? Aside from the seppuku scene? I honestly don't remember anything other than that. I'm more than certain (And I'm hoping) that I'm wrong.
I mentioned this in my post above, but there are only four scenes in which a Japanese soldier takes up at least half the frame: the first is Doss' dream, where there's a shock edit of a Japanese soldier's face screaming into the camera, the next is Doss saving a wounded Japanese soldier, the third is the encounter in the tunnels, and the fourth the seppuku scene. So, basically, it's either to scare Doss, make Doss look compassionate, or give a glimpse of an alien cultural moment as a symbolic short hand for whatever.

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Big Ben
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Re: Hacksaw Ridge (Mel Gibson, 2016)

#68 Post by Big Ben » Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:29 pm

Mr Sausage wrote:I mentioned this in my post above, but there are only four scenes in which a Japanese soldier takes up at least half the frame: the first is Doss' dream, where there's a shock edit of a Japanese soldier's face screaming into the camera, the next is Doss saving a wounded Japanese soldier, the third is the encounter in the tunnels, and the fourth the seppuku scene. So, basically, it's either to scare Doss, make Doss look compassionate, or give a glimpse of an alien cultural moment as a symbolic short hand for whatever.
My apologies. I should have been more thorough. But thank you for being specific here because it validates my poor opinion of the film itself while validating my poor memory of it too.

I've only seen two Gibson directorial efforts, this and Braveheart and I can't remember a single thing about either of them other than very sparse details. I hate myself for asking this but I would imagine the rest of Gibson's directorial works are as subtle as a building demolition? I shudder to think what Passion of the Christ is like (I would have been thirteen when it came out so I missed all the controversy). Or his supposed plan for a sequel to it titled Resurrection.

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How rude!
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Re: Hacksaw Ridge (Mel Gibson, 2016)

#69 Post by How rude! » Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:16 am

I hate myself for asking this but I would imagine the rest of Gibson's directorial works are as subtle as a building demolition?
You should take the time to see Apocalypto. One of the few, great modern action adventure films. It has a perfect ending. May well be a masterpiece. It convinced me the man can direct. A great, great film.

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John Cope
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Re: Hacksaw Ridge (Mel Gibson, 2016)

#70 Post by John Cope » Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:35 am

Big Ben wrote:Or his supposed plan for a sequel to it titled Resurrection.
I can't wait for this personally. But I genuinely love Passion of the Christ. And Hacksaw Ridge.

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Mr Sausage
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Re: Hacksaw Ridge (Mel Gibson, 2016)

#71 Post by Mr Sausage » Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:18 am

John Cope wrote:
Big Ben wrote:Or his supposed plan for a sequel to it titled Resurrection.
I can't wait for this personally. But I genuinely love Passion of the Christ. And Hacksaw Ridge.
I'd love to hear why.

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