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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:36 pm 

Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 10:43 am
Moshrom wrote:
To be clear, the Criterion discs are pitched 1.4 semitones lower than the Arrow discs.


Thanks for pointing that out.

It helps to explain why it was so noticeable to me when trying to do a comparison between the two sets. Am still glad I have both sets because of the difference in content, but I do wish that at least one of the sets had the correct pitch.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:59 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2016 4:50 am
Location: Toronto, ON
We may have misunderstood each other, likely because I did not express myself very clearly.

Yes, when listening/watching side by side the difference is very clear, because most people have good-to-very good relative pitch recognition. If watched alone, unless you remember that the excerpt you provided begins with a C (in Arrow's edition) and not a B (in the soundtrack) then you could not easily tell which version you are hearing, and you would need perfect pitch in order to identify. Again, if you hear side by side it's a different story.

Your Seinfeld example I think helps clear what I wanted to say. If Dekalog featured well-known actors and music that is easily recognizable then absolutely yes, this would be a big issue when watching. Why? Because most of us can vividly remember the voice of Jerry Seinfeld, Jason Alexander etc, so any alteration would hit us over the head.

However, with Dekalog I am sure many people are not in the same position, where they recognize the voices of the actors or the soundtrack. Now, if Arrow has altered the pitch incorrectly then it is indeed a mistake, but I do not think it affects the viewer as strongly as you seem to be suggesting.

After all, how many people are going to view the Criterion and the Arrow presentations back to back? I think this may well be the reason this issue has not been brought up before, especially since the Arrow edition has been around for over a year.

So, to summarize the "definitive" tag (which I dislike attributing to any edition) may be lost because of the inaccuracy, but the enjoyement and the experience by the viewer is definitely not affected much in this particular instance (unless you are a Polish film connoisseur).


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:15 am 
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Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 2:53 am
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Yes, I agree with you -- it's not something anyone who is unfamiliar with the voices of the actors or the specifics of the score would notice, regardless of their pitch-discerning ability. I didn't mean to imply anything otherwise.

It is, however, still something anyone can notice should they choose to, so at the very least I'd appreciate any sort of acknowledgement of the error from anyone involved with the release.

Also, this will be the last 'bump' from me to this thread, so if a response is not given, I'll assume Arrow are aware of the issue and have chosen to ignore it (like the many owners of the set here who haven't replied and would rather I not repeatedly bum them out with these discoveries - sorry).


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:36 am 
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Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:13 am
I think part of the discussion comes from the communication about Arrow's care to get the proper frame rate and the proper sound pitch and yet, there's a pitch difference between the set and the OST CDs.

As Moshrom righly points out, not detecting the issue also doesn't mean it isn't there in the first place. It might not be bothering (see below) but it's there.

Moshrom wrote:
Again, it's equivalent to PAL speed-up, which is well-established as being something that even untrained, non-musicians can notice.


I challenge that assertion. I doubt anybody watching for the first time a movie with a PAL Speed up could detect the issue if it wasn't for already having some reference (an opening logo cue, a canon classical piece, the voice of an actor or an actress).

I've watched lots of movies that turned out to be incorrectly encoded in 1080i50 instead of 1080p24 and I usually couldn't detect it. I'll probably ear the difference on the French BD of Z, because I'm very familiar with it through the Criterion DVD, but when I saw What We Do In The Shadows or Starred Up for the first time ? Absolutely no clue they were in 1080i and I would have no idea if they were pitch corrected or not (which is another variable).

However, I was able to easily detect this stuff on the French The Brood and Scanners BD because the opening Pathé logo was higher pitched, but that's only because I've had watched so many Pathé BDs in 1080p the previous weeks that my memory had a fresh A/B comparison.


While I don't doubt many people could easily notice a pitch difference during an AB comparison, I thus doubt they could find out from a brand new sample that it's improperly pitched. It's, after all, not much different from all the recent discussions over color-timing of new restorations : while some are so weird it's relatively easy to notice the change, many discussions only started (and kept on) because of / thanks to the availability of AB comparisons and / or lots of prior knowledge. Without these, I think many differences would have been unnoticed.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:52 am 
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Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 2:53 am
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tenia wrote:
Moshrom wrote:
Again, it's equivalent to PAL speed-up, which is well-established as being something that even untrained, non-musicians can notice.


I challenge that assertion. I doubt anybody watching for the first time a movie with a PAL Speed up could detect the issue if it wasn't for already having some reference
Sorry, as I mentioned in my previous post, this assertion should have included the condition when comparing to a reference sample. I doubt anyone alive could listen to a voice pitched 0.7 semitones too high or too low and, without a reference, pick out that it's been altered.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:35 am 
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Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:13 am
We agree then :) (and on your comparisons, it's perfectly noticeable).


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:51 am 

Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2016 3:43 am
It's definitely great that someone noticed.

Didn't affect my viewing but I can see how it'd upset others.

Doubtful a replacement program will happen as surely it'd be too expensive.

This is something that will surely help in future restoration work, which is developing all the time.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:54 am 
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Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 4:22 am
Location: NYC
I will notice if the pitch is a half semitone off very easily and quickly if I'm listening to a familiar voice and/or song - a common occurrence with bootleg recordings - so a 0.7 semitone is pretty damn significant. Oy, well, so much for having the one definitive BD mastering that no one can improve upon.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:42 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2010 5:10 pm
i've started watching the Dekalog,
Saw the first 2 episodes.
i read in the notes of episode 1:

"Artur Barcis closes this Dekalog story - and its next nine parts - with his stare."

But that is not the case in these 2 episodes that i've seen!
What am I missing here? :-s


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:33 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:25 am
Location: SLC, UT
I don't know that he's literally in the final shot, but that character is the only thing common to all of the episodes, a kind of angelic figure who merely observes (laments? judges?) the main characters' actions.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:38 pm 
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Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm
He is actually missing from two.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:42 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2014 1:14 pm
I expect it is meant to say "opens" - still wrong but less so.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:45 pm 
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knives wrote:
He is actually missing from two.

I was rounding up.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 3:48 pm 

Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:30 pm
I've spent all day researching and strategizing my purchases for the biannual Barnes and Noble Criterion sale (decided on these: Stalker, Walkabout, Don't Look Now, Safe, and Naked). BTW, here are my tips for newbies interested in the sale, including a couple of counterintuitive suggestions).

I'm trying to research one final issue, but I'm too fried! Can anyone help?

I own "The Decalogue" 3-DVD box set from FACETS. Is the "Dekalog" edition from Criterion the same material? If so, is there any compelling reason to upgrade (aside from the opportunity to go HD/blu-ray)?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:10 pm 
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Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 7:24 pm
Jimmbo wrote:
I've spent all day researching and strategizing my purchases for the biannual Barnes and Noble Criterion sale (decided on these: Stalker, Walkabout, Don't Look Now, Safe, and Naked). BTW, here are my tips for newbies interested in the sale, including a couple of counterintuitive suggestions).

I'm trying to research one final issue, but I'm too fried! Can anyone help?

I own "The Decalogue" 3-DVD box set from FACETS. Is the "Dekalog" edition from Criterion the same material? If so, is there any compelling reason to upgrade (aside from the opportunity to go HD/blu-ray)?

The films being watchable is kind of a big one. (The old Facets release wasn't as bad as Facets got, but that's not much of a bar to clear!)


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:36 pm 
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Night and day difference.


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