Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Rian Johnson, 2017)

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Lost Highway
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#251 Post by Lost Highway » Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:17 am

Even when it comes to this trilogy Adam Driver has competition in the best actor stakes. Isaac and Dern are no slouches (I’d argue that Driver is a very similar actor to Dern in terms of intensity, creative choices and presence. Dern has many qualities which male actors get praised for and long got derided for it.) I think a strong case can be made that Driver gives the most compelling performance in all the Star Wars films so far (and I loved the way it used Dern).

I’ve finally watched The Last Jedi last night and never having been much of a Star Wars fan, this is shaping up to become my favourite Star Wars trilogy. The biggest problem I’ve had with the series is that the characterisation has always been thin. The characters in these new films strike me as having more depth and there are more shades of gray.

I loved what they did with Skywalker in this. One of the most boring characters in pop culture screws up big time (and lies about it !) and finally stops being bland. The film has pacing problems but for me at least, it’s the first Star Wars movie where characters make interesting choices with interesting results.

Side notes: I loved the vibe of De Palma’s The Fury the first time Rey and Kylo establish a psychic connection and the evil Wizard of Oz look of Snoke’s throne room.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#252 Post by N_Bourbaki » Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:55 am

Mr Sausage wrote:
Luke M wrote:We’re just gonna act like Academy Award winner and 4 time nominee Alec Guinness wasn’t in this series? Or Natalie Portman?

Adam Driver probably has delivered best performance in a Star Wars movie but actually being the best? Too soon.
Or Peter Cushing and Christopher Lee?
How can anyone overlook Peter Cushing's electric performance in Rogue One?

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mfunk9786
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#253 Post by mfunk9786 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:58 pm

There’s no way I can go back and read this whole thread but I’ll just say, upon my viewing of The Last Jedi: How could anyone not like that? How could anyone not love that? Easily the best one of these films for me (ever), a borderline masterpiece trapped in the machinery of a monolithic franchise. Great, stunning stuff.

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barryconvex
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#254 Post by barryconvex » Sat May 12, 2018 12:49 am

mfunk9786 wrote:There’s no way I can go back and read this whole thread but I’ll just say, upon my viewing of The Empire Strikes Back: How could anyone not like that? How could anyone not love that? Easily the best one of these films for me (ever), a borderline masterpiece trapped in the machinery of a monolithic franchise. Great, stunning stuff.
Fixed..

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mfunk9786
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#255 Post by mfunk9786 » Sat May 12, 2018 1:52 am

Wow, you sure showed me

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tenia
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#256 Post by tenia » Sat May 12, 2018 6:47 am

To be honest, people like me who disliked the movie spent some lengghy posts to explain in a detailled manner the grounded reasons for their dislike, to the point we also discusses why we were writing the lengthy posts !
How could anyone not love TLJ ? Do I need to go over the reasons again ?

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Lost Highway
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#257 Post by Lost Highway » Sat May 12, 2018 7:05 am

tenia wrote:To be honest, people like me who disliked the movie spent some lengghy posts to explain in a detailled manner the grounded reasons for their dislike, to the point we also discusses why we were writing the lengthy posts !
How could anyone not love TLJ ? Do I need to go over the reasons again ?
barryconvex’ post was the most redundant response imaginable. Like nobody here was aware that Empire is the most adored of the Star Wars movies and that it’s the least controversial choice to cite as a favourite.

I’m still bemused as to why The Last Jedi is so polarizing but I think it’s a film that speaks to many who’ve never understood the fuss around Star Wars, like myself. I don’t think it’s a perfect movie by any means, but most things its detractors feel is wrong with The Last Jedi, is exactly what I like about the film.

And no, please don’t restate everything you’ve said, we all are capable of scrolling a few posts back. ;)

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#258 Post by bearcuborg » Sat May 12, 2018 7:39 am

I keep thinking new posts are gonna be about Solo, instead we’re still going over the last one...

If one is keen to hate on it again, pick up the June edition of MAD (or subscribe, it’s cheap!) where they sooof...

The Half Assed Jedi. Highlights include, Luke tossing his saber because Rey made it worthless by taking it out of its original packaging, and Kylo being relieved Luke wanted to kill him when he enters his tent, rather than it being his #metoo moment.
Last edited by bearcuborg on Mon May 14, 2018 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lost Highway
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#259 Post by Lost Highway » Sat May 12, 2018 8:20 am

There isn’t that much else to say about Solo till at least the review embargo lifts

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Lost Highway
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#260 Post by Lost Highway » Sun May 27, 2018 12:20 pm

The Force Awakens has been criticized for being too close to Star Wars/A New Hope. I think that’s a strength, it retools the first Star Wars movie into a superior film. I think the characters are more engaging, the performances of the young leads are an improvement and I find the film better directed. The Last Jedi is the new trilogy‘s The Empire Strikes Back and while that always was the only original Star Wars movie I genuinely liked, I think The Last Jedi is an even better movie. It genuinely takes risks. As a life long Star Wars agnostic I’m now more on board with Star Wars than I ever was. I also think visually the new films are beautiful. They take the aesthetic of the original movies to another level. The light saber duel in the forest in TFA and the throne room in TLJ are gorgeous.

That only goes for the trilogy. I haven’t seen Solo yet but Rogue One is among the most boring blockbusters I’ve seen in a long time. I‘ve watched it twice and second time round was even worse.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#261 Post by Keleg » Mon May 28, 2018 10:52 pm

I feel that the initial popularity of Star Wars was a B movie kind of imagination mixed with A budget studio technology, the innovative and unusual production design especially Darth Vader, the stormtroopers, and the interesting spaceships, coupled with the groundbreaking advances in FX (especially the Death Star trench sequence). Star Wars provided a cinematic experience that one had not seen before.
But on the negative side, the story was very simplistic, with weak characterization.
While there was a basic Arthurian myth aspect to the first movie and that had appeal, they made some adjustments to satisfy what I assume was studio dictates on message.
So Luke is not a strong assertive hero in the making, and Han Solo is not as successful as the Man With No Name.
Even Obi Wan Kenobi, who starts off as your traditional Merlin-type fatherly sage, ends up as something of a failure (we learn by ROTJ that he failed in teaching his apprentice). Luke, although he becomes a Jedi, in the end has to plead to his father to save him.
The most successful character in the OT is Lando Calrissian. Luke needed the Force and help from a friend (shooting Vader from behind) to blow up the Death Star, Lando and co-pilot did not.

I think they missed the boat by not following the storyline that Gary Kurtz said was the original plan--so in ROTJ Darth Vader and the Emperor compete for control of Luke and Vader dies.
Then in the next three films, Luke rebuilds the Jedi Order while Leia assumes a leadership position, and he roams the galaxy cleaning up the remnants of the Empire while seeking "the Other" Yoda spoke of for a final confrontation with the Emperor in Episode 9.

From the way Hamill talked about the sequels for decades, he was expecting to assume a role similar to Guinness in the 1977 film--but he must have ignored the ever increasing frequency of non-traditional storytelling mechanics in the Star Wars Prequel films (and pretty much all Hollywood product). That kind of male character could not be shown to be successful.
The enduring message for him is failure not triumph.

And just as the original film sees them blowing up a machine planet full of British bureaucrats--the most recent films amplify that message even more, so even Luke is not welcome at the victory party.
The social engineering political ideology has bypassed the storytelling, and in an age when spfx is taken for granted, Star Wars cannot offer anything like it did in the old days with simple tricks and nonsense.
In order for it to be innovative and potentially entertaining again, the Disney CEO board needs to back off-and I do not think they will.
Movies are generally a lot better made when they require audiences to survive financially but for a company like Disney they can subsidize their movie division for a long time.

It is a serious WTF that the guy they hired to make the next three films says Annie Hall is his favorite movie. If he said El Cid or Magnum Force was, it wouldn't be such a genre jump, but Woody Allen and populist escapist storytelling go together like mustard and chocolate.

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Kirkinson
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#262 Post by Kirkinson » Tue May 29, 2018 2:32 am

Keleg wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 10:52 pm
It is a serious WTF that the guy they hired to make the next three films says Annie Hall is his favorite movie. If he said El Cid or Magnum Force was, it wouldn't be such a genre jump, but Woody Allen and populist escapist storytelling go together like mustard and chocolate.
Apologies if I'm misreading you, but why is that "a serious WTF"? Plenty of filmmakers love movies that aren't necessarily similar to the ones they make. The film that inspired Godfrey Reggio to make movies was Los Olvidados. Larry Charles who directed Borat and spent most of his career as a sitcom writer said his favorite movie is Godard's Weekend. If Kathleen Kennedy had hired Rian Johnson (I assume that's who you're talking about?) specifically because he said Annie Hall was his favorite movie, sure, that would be weird. But it's more likely she hired him because she liked Brick and Looper, neither of which are remotely like Annie Hall. Take a look at the list of films he explicitly cited as influences on The Last Jedi, and add to that Kagemusha, Black Narcissus, and Wings, which he's cited elsewhere (and are fairly obvious in the film itself) and it's clear he has a wide range of interests and influences in filmmaking, including escapist entertainment.

Obviously none of this means you have to like what he does with Star Wars, it's just bizarre to suggest his admiration for Annie Hall specifically makes him an odd choice.

Keleg
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#263 Post by Keleg » Tue May 29, 2018 12:33 pm

Kirkinson wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 2:32 am

Apologies if I'm misreading you, but why is that "a serious WTF"? Plenty of filmmakers love movies that aren't necessarily similar to the ones they make. The film that inspired Godfrey Reggio to make movies was Los Olvidados. Larry Charles who directed Borat and spent most of his career as a sitcom writer said his favorite movie is Godard's Weekend.
The director of Jesus of Montreal said the most perfect movie ever made was Jaws.
The writers of the Transformers movies said their favorite was Waiting for Godot. I think that explains the eccentric humor and apparent lack of understanding of traditional sci-fi fantasy film conventions in their work.

It is just weird for someone who says his preference is quirky experimental comedy to be involved in what the public expects to be a traditional kind of genre storytelling.

Enthusiasm for something doesn't necessarily translate into professionalism, but it usually doesn't hurt.

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domino harvey
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#264 Post by domino harvey » Tue May 29, 2018 12:41 pm

Wasn't aware that loving one film meant you cannot have fondness or familiarity with other films

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Ribs
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#265 Post by Ribs » Tue May 29, 2018 12:52 pm

I mean, just think for yourself. If a studio came to you, out of nowhere, and offered you $100-plus-million, would YOU want to make a movie like your favorite movie? I guess I can imagine you might not, but I don't really think it's that outlandish. And I also don't really think Annie Hall is as subversive and outside-the-mainstream-truly-experimental as you seem to think. And I think that there is a totally rational argument that some of what Johnson does to upend our preconceived notions about Star Wars and Jedi and all that are clearly sharing in some sort of a similar subversive streak, even if I don't think many would argue it's for the same reasons or with the same success.

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Kirkinson
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#266 Post by Kirkinson » Tue May 29, 2018 4:06 pm

Keleg wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 12:33 pm
Enthusiasm for something doesn't necessarily translate into professionalism, but it usually doesn't hurt.
He has given multiple interviews in which he talks about how excited he was to work on a Star Wars movie, how Star Wars was the first movie his dad ever took him to see in a theater, how he used to play with Star Wars toys as a kid, etc, etc. It's also demonstrably clear that he likes a wide range of genres from a wide range of eras of film history and that his filmmaking up to now has not been bound in any way to his admiration of Annie Hall.
Ribs wrote:I mean, just think for yourself. If a studio came to you, out of nowhere, and offered you $100-plus-million, would YOU want to make a movie like your favorite movie?
If someone offered me $100-plus-million with no strings attached, sure! But if someone offered me that money specifically to make a Star Wars movie, then no, I would not want to make a movie like Werckmeister Harmonies or Sans Soleil, and Lucasfilm wouldn't let me if I tried. I would probably think instead about the Ray Harryhausen movies, Jack London novels, 80s & early 90s sci-fi/fantasy films, and X-Men comics I used to love when I was younger, all of which I can still happily engage with (though I think all my comics got destroyed when my parents' basement flooded several years ago).

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#267 Post by black&huge » Tue May 29, 2018 4:33 pm

Kirkinson wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 4:06 pm
If someone offered me $100-plus-million with no strings attached, sure! But if someone offered me that money specifically to make a Star Wars movie, then no, I would not want to make a movie like Werckmeister Harmonies or Sans Soleil, and Lucasfilm wouldn't let me if I tried. I would probably think instead about the Ray Harryhausen movies, Jack London novels, 80s & early 90s sci-fi/fantasy films, and X-Men comics I used to love when I was younger, all of which I can still happily engage with (though I think all my comics got destroyed when my parents' basement flooded several years ago).
I can't tell if this entire paragraph is being sarcastic.

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Kirkinson
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#268 Post by Kirkinson » Tue May 29, 2018 4:48 pm

Well, that's probably a sign I should have quit this debate one post earlier.

Keleg
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#269 Post by Keleg » Tue May 29, 2018 4:50 pm

Kirkinson wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 4:06 pm

He has given multiple interviews in which he talks about how excited he was to work on a Star Wars movie,
Yeah I am sure he has. And I am sure he will keep saying it right until he collects his final pay check.
But it is still an odd choice for a director of escapist fantasy films to cite as his favorite film--unless he is only making a Star Wars film because he was offered the money (which I am sure was the case--but the fact that Disney felt such a person was the ideal candidate for their vision is the real issue).


At the end of the day he was hired to fulfill the tasks assigned by Disney's executive board-when a director steps out of line with their vision-they remove them (as was the case with Edgar Wright). The machine is so well tuned they don't even miss their release date when the director is replaced. That is how little the director actually matters for these tentpole films that are micromanaged in a board room.

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Ribs
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#270 Post by Ribs » Tue May 29, 2018 4:55 pm

I don't understand this at all. Rian Johnson is entitled to like whatever movies he wants - yes, his favorite movie is a "serious" movie that just so happens to have some history of being "more worthy" than Star Wars itself - but that should say nothing of his ability to do a Star Wars movie well, nor in his interest in making it. It is not an odd choice at all. Is it also weird that young hotshot Steven Spielberg would choose to make a movie about a shark attack or aliens despite his favorite movie being about a newspaper magnate? Or that George Romero made tons of horror fare despite being most moved by Tales of Hoffman? The fact that they have to report to money-men in a boardroom is a totally different argument then what you're saying, and is also undermining the actual basic fact that Rian Johnson wrote and directed the film without being "put on a track" by Kennedy or any other producers, somehow the only one to do so without hiccups coming in along the way, and managed to make the most interesting and subversive of the four.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#271 Post by Mr Sausage » Tue May 29, 2018 5:09 pm

Keleg wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 4:50 pm
Kirkinson wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 4:06 pm

He has given multiple interviews in which he talks about how excited he was to work on a Star Wars movie,
Yeah I am sure he has. And I am sure he will keep saying it right until he collects his final pay check.
Are you accusing a stranger of lying for money just so you don't have to admit you're wrong? Come on.
Keleg wrote:But it is still an odd choice for a director of escapist fantasy films to cite as his favorite film--unless he is only making a Star Wars film because he was offered the money (which I am sure was the case--but the fact that Disney felt such a person was the ideal candidate for their vision is the real issue).
No, It's not. If it were something from Godard's Dziga Vertov period, you might have the ghost of a point. But it's Annie Hall, a popular, widely loved movie that's not especially challenging or avant garde. Plus that's one film. No one chooses the movies they make based on the one single film they happen to like best at some point in time.

It's a hell of a lot less weird than, say, Star Wars being made by the same guy who made THX 1138.

Keleg
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#272 Post by Keleg » Tue May 29, 2018 5:10 pm

No I don't think its the same.

Annie Hall is only popular among critics not mass audiences (Allen has been on studio welfare for decades--John Carpenter had to hustle for money but I don't think Allen ever had to interrupt a single jazz performance to raise funding--maybe that's why Orson Welles hated him-both did experimental films but Welles never had a consistent stable finance source--and I am not aware of any actor who ever turned down an Allen film even after his scandal while Mia Farrow never got steady studio work again).

And Annie Hall is the polar opposite of a Star Wars.
Usually when a director is hired for something the idea is that they are picked because the material has some relevance to them. In this case and the case of the Transformers writers, it really makes no sense to hire people who express their number 1 love for a completely different genre. In the case of Transformers it showed with the grandfather glasses gag, that sort of treasure quest would have been considered too goofy even for Ed Wood.

Sure, Spielberg said Lawrence of Arabia is his favorite film, but the genre for that is not a complete opposite for one of his adventure films.
Likewise, Peeping Tom is about a man of violence who cannot change his ways, and many Scorsese films do have that theme so I don't see it as jarring that he is a great admirer of it.

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domino harvey
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#273 Post by domino harvey » Tue May 29, 2018 5:18 pm

Annie Hall is only popular among critics not mass audiences
Annie Hall was the 10th highest grossing film of 1977. It was extremely popular, and has been for years since. Perhaps you should talk to more people outside of your bubble

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Ribs
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#274 Post by Ribs » Tue May 29, 2018 5:21 pm

I do not understand what possible way you can think Annie Hall is a deep-cut arty film instead of an inventively edited studio comedy that made a lot of money, made Diane Keaton the movie star she is, spawned several very frequently quoted lines, solidified Woody's stake with the studio and as a celebrity to enable these decades of "coasting," and won big Oscars over Star Wars. I think it is *radical* for what it is and I love it a lot but it's fairly universally beloved (in fact, I really can't think of contrary opinions to it that I'm familiar with that aren't taking into account personal trepidations about Allen himself). It was voted Hollywood's 18th favorite film in the recent THR survey of entertainment figures, in the midst of Pulp Fiction, Forrest Gump, and ahead of Lawrence of Arabia and Jaws. It's an inarguable classic which has strong name recognition even with general audiences to this day.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#275 Post by Keleg » Tue May 29, 2018 5:22 pm

Mr Sausage wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 5:09 pm

Are you accusing a stranger of lying for money just so you don't have to admit you're wrong? Come on.

Have you listened to his convention interview alongside Mark Hamill from a few months ago?
He spent most of it giggling and reciting what might have been press kit talking points.

He's a far cry from a Verhoeven or McTiernan kind of director.

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